Ep 26 - Stop Boring Me! How To Harness Improv and Humor to Create Engaging Content
w/ kathy klotz-guest
Author of “Stop Boring Me!”
SHOW NOTES
My guest today is Kathy Klotz-Guest. Kathy is a comedian, a storyteller, an improv actor, a keynote speaker and author of the wonderful book that I highly recommend called “Stop Boring Me.” The subtitle is “How to create kick-ass marketing content, products, and ideas through the power of improv.” In this episode we talk about the many lessons that Kathy has learned from her improv career that she brings to the world of business storytelling. How if we look at what makes for successful improv and comedy, if we view our content through that lens, we can have a much better grasp on how to create content that is engaging and emotionally resonates with your audience.
LINKS:
Purchase Kathy's book "Stop Boring Me!"
Kathy's website - Keepingithuman.com
Connect with Kathy onLinkedin
Mentioned in this episode:
-Pricing for Video Storytelling Subscription: pricing.unveild.tv
-Download the 3-part storytelling framework for student/alumni testimonials - "3 Absolutely Crucial Components Every Compelling College Student/Alumni Testimonial Needs"
-"Everybody Loves Raymond" suitcase scene
Transcript (done with AI so only about 80% accurate):
John Azoni:
All right, well, let's just jump in. Kathy, thanks so much for being here.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Thank you for having me. This is fun. I love to talk to new people. So this is great.
John Azoni:
So you are a marketer, a storyteller, but you're also accomplished in the improv space. So tell me your history in improv, how that's morphed into this connection with storytelling.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Sure, I don't even see myself as a marketer. I held marketing titles in tech. So I ran global comms teams and marketing teams for a lot of big tech companies and some startups in Silicon Valley for about 16, 17 years. And my job was, you know, marketing rolled into me, corporate communications rolled into me. It was my job to help with media relations. So to train a lot of our executives on how to talk to the press. Oh my God, media relations and all that stuff. That's really what it was. think so much of what I did in communication was storytelling. And I always felt that improv is storytelling. And I've been doing improv and standup comedy for 25 years. I still tour. I still go on standup tours. I went to Second City, studied sketch, sketch storytelling models, wrote a lot of sketches. I still perform and teach improv. So I've been doing that for a long time. And what I discovered was, along the way, that so much of what I learned about great communication did not come from business. the stage.
John Azoni:
Yeah.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
And there's a reason for that. I think when it's about tapping into emotions and emotional resonance and moving people through a storyline and I felt like the stage offers so much. So I today my company really combines you know comedy and improv lessons with business so that we can all up our game. We can all up our game and and really you know I think comedy is storytelling. Improv is storytelling and if you want to look for a great model of storytelling to look further than people who are doing comedy. And it doesn't mean you have to be a comedian, John, and I know you know that, but
John Azoni:
Yeah
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
a lot of people are like, oh my god, comedy. No, no, no, you don't have to be. But here's the thing, we can learn, we can take the things that work and bring them into the business space and make it better.
John Azoni:
Absolutely. I have an earlier podcast episode on that very topic, uh, where I talk about, uh, the difference
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yeah.
John Azoni:
between, um, comedic and anecdotes in like a Tik Tok video versus a, what a, what a true standup comedian does, which is tell a story. And
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yeah.
John Azoni:
that kind of the difference between, you know, just a normal marketing video and something that's deeper and in a, sorry, who are some of your favorite, uh, comedians? Cause
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
All
John Azoni:
I'm
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
over
John Azoni:
a big
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
the map,
John Azoni:
fan.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
all over the map. You know, God lover Carol Burnett, Phyllis Diller, Moms Mabely, some pioneering women. I gotta tell you, I love Wanda Sykes. I love Hannah Gadsby. I love Fortune Feimster. I love, there's so many, and there's, Dave Chappelle's brilliant in so many ways in what he does. I think Bill Burr is great and brilliant in so many ways. So there's so many amazing comedic choices out there. And the point is, is there's a style for everybody.
John Azoni:
Yeah.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
But you'll notice that what comedy really is at the heart of it, and I've always believed it. In fact, I'm doing a winery, I'm out there doing comedy tomorrow night and Friday night, Good Friday, I'm out there doing a large winery venue, I'm doing comedy. It is storytelling and people come because they're hungry to laugh, they're hungry to connect. They're hungry for it.
John Azoni:
Absolutely. So tell me about, so Keeping It Human is your
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Bye.
John Azoni:
website, that's your brand. So tell me kind of how that came about. What is it? What do you do?
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
So keeping a human really is about, again, combining improv and comedy and all the storytelling brilliance and juiciness of the stage with business. So it's really about helping leaders and their teams be better communicators, better storytellers. But it doesn't stop there because once you learn how to be a better communicator and a better storyteller, it changes you. This is not about just skills. It changes the way you show up. It changes your team. that people see you. It changes trust. It's transformational. And I think instead of being afraid of comedy, oh my god, comedy doesn't belong in business. No, it does. It's just that people are so busy thinking, oh, I have to be a comedian, I have to be funny. No, what you have to be is emotionally available. You have to show up. You have to risk something. You have to tell a great story. And all those skills are things that I bring into business. who learn sketch, who learn storytelling models. I think we underestimate comedians. We think comedians, well, they can't be serious. And yet the best storytelling models we have today come from the comedy stage. They come from the improv stage. They come from the way that we build things on a stage. So in fact, the reality is, is if you want to be better at that, look at not just comedians who are stand-up comedians, they're brilliant, but look at And improv is brilliant for that because you're building a story with other people.
John Azoni:
Yeah, absolutely.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yeah.
John Azoni:
Sorry, it started just downpouring and I'm going to close this window.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Oh no, where are you at? Where are you at? No. Oh no.
John Azoni:
We're in Detroit. We have a tornado tornado warning today, oddly. So if if I have to end this podcast early, it's for a legitimate weather reason. There is a tornado coming.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
I'm so sorry and I get it because California has been hit by so many storms, one after the other. So I'm with you.
John Azoni:
All
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
I'm
John Azoni:
right,
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
with you.
John Azoni:
well, hope it doesn't, I've never actually seen a tornado. So maybe you'll
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
OOF
John Azoni:
witness my neighbors.
John Azoni:
Awesome. Well, you know, it's so we're so for people listening, we're tuning back in here a couple months
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
I'm sorry.
John Azoni:
ago, a month or two ago that we there was a literal tornado warning. And I
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Sorry.
John Azoni:
thought, I hope I make it through this podcast. Because like right when we started talking, the wind just like started ripping. And like I watching out my window, my neighbors trash cans just blowing across this street
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Mm-hmm.
John Azoni:
and then all of a sudden the power goes out and it turned out my neighbor, a few houses down, they had a whole huge pine tree that just didn't even crack and tip over. It uprooted itself completely and
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yeah,
John Azoni:
landed on the power line.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
that's that's dangerous. That's really scary. Well, we had our own storms, you know, a few months before you did, we had storms out here in California. If you remember the news, so much so that our whole back fence and our backyard just blew off. I mean, it's just blew off. We were like, oh, okay then, hi neighbors. And like, and you know, it happens and it just, you know, this was a particularly crazy year. I'm glad you're safe. I'm glad everybody is safe. There you go.
John Azoni:
Yeah, we're good. Okay, so we left off, you were talking about the intersection of marketing and improv. So let's pick back up there, tell me that again, and then I've got some more questions for you.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, it's interesting because I came out of marketing. I'll just say this. I came out of marketing and product and communications in tech, but I don't see myself as a marketer. I guess once you're a marketer, you're always a marketer. Today, I work with all kinds of teams, not just marketing, but I think part of the intersection with marketing and improv is that, you know, marketing is such an exercise in improv because you're only as good as your customers say it is and you have to constantly be evolving in what we call yes anding. letting go and then basically co-creating with your customers. And that's the one thing that I think marketers are so rigid about. It's like, no, we have a schedule, we have a product update, we have a plan, but crap happens and the plan goes to hell like we were talking about with storms. There are times where you can have a plan, but one of the things we forget to do is to build and co-create and take direction from customers. And that's what really improv is, is that it's co-ownership. It's understanding that we are building this for them, with them, for their needs. And I think it's a different way of thinking about planning and letting go, preparing and then letting go when we need to. And that is marketing, that's storytelling. That's everything that we do is have the plan, but be prepared to let go when your customers say, that doesn't work for us. Here's what we need. Yeah.
John Azoni:
Yeah. So how did you arrive at? So how did you go from some from improv to and you will get to this in a minute. You write
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yeah.
John Azoni:
a really great book called Stop Boring Me
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Mhm.
John Azoni:
about storytelling and
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yeah.
John Azoni:
marketing and improv.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yeah.
John Azoni:
How did you get how did that journey come about?
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
So the journey was I was parallel pathing it. There's really nothing magical to it. So I was working in tech, still here out in Silicon Valley. And my job during the day was tech, but I was doing comedy at night. And I've been doing comedy for 25 years, but the way that I got my comedy experience was in the carpool lane. Yeah, very congested California carpool lane. that goes like, you know, 40 miles an hour because it's over capacity. But basically working, you know, in tech during the day. And everything I learned about, you know, improv and standup at night and sketch, I was like, these are threads that would make teams better, would make storytelling better. All these things are better served because basically improv is an operating system for how to adjust real time. It's an operating system. And what if companies work this way? What if marketing worked this way? What if leaders work this way? Which is basically Ted Lasso. Jason Sudeikis is an improviser and he basically it's a love letter to improv. That's what the Richmond way is.
John Azoni:
Mm-hmm.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
And I know this because he and I studied at some of the same places, improv school. Yeah, yeah.
John Azoni:
Oh, cool.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yeah.
John Azoni:
I love Ted Lasso. This. It's such a good show. It's such a unique
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Reach
John Azoni:
show.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
out.
John Azoni:
It's such so
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yes.
John Azoni:
well written and so like I love I love the the you know, good story is kind of like it's funny and there's there's conflict in there but there's like a redeeming quality about it which I think is just so so great. That's just so well written.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yep. Yep. And it really, I mean, to pull from that, that's a perfect example of how we can collaborate and have each other's backs. And that's not only how teams work, that's how marketing could work, to not only listen to story ideas that live everywhere in the company, not just marketing, but also customers. And why can't we be more improvisational and yes-and driven and collaborative? And that's really what I think the lessons of what stopped boring me was that it's possible. And the only reason we're trapped in that thinking is because we're not thinking about this as a way to build together.
John Azoni:
Yeah, so tell me about the book. What's the premise? What's it about?
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
It's really about, you know, here's the thing. I think we think boring is something that kind of is inevitable because we're in certain industries. Like, you know, some people in really boring industries are like, ah, there's nothing I can do, you know, it's regulated. It's regulated. It's insurance. It's, you know, health care. It's a regulated industry. Wah wah. Yeah, OK, that's true. That doesn't mean you have to be boring. And boring is a mindset. And I think we can over, there is no boring, it doesn't have to be boring marketing because your industry is boring. And the reality is, is if we let go of some of these old ideas, antiquated ideas about how we create, we open up a whole new world. That was really the premise. And what if we created more boldly and tried more things and experimented more and collaborated more? And who says marketing has to create all the content? Why are we not letting our, you know, best advocates in the company and outside the company help create that for us and with us. So it's a new way of thinking much more in line with, before the Richmond way was the Richmond way. It's like, what can we learn from really improv thinking to be able to explode ideas and to really rethink that? Yeah.
John Azoni:
Yeah,
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
So,
John Azoni:
that's great. And for people listening, the book's called Stop Boring Me. It's a very good book. I read it on my family vacation. We went to Outer Banks a couple months ago and was very impressed. I've read a lot of storytelling books and I love the ones that are very practical. And I think you get some theory in there, but it's really about, it's just like, how do we do this?
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
How do we do this?
John Azoni:
How
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yeah.
John Azoni:
do we apply this in a business setting, in a leadership setting, that kind of thing. So that's what I really appreciated about it.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Thank you. No, I appreciate that. I wanted this book to be something you could hands-on do it, not just theory, because I think too much storytelling is theory and no disrespect to the hero's journey, love some Joseph Campbell, but I think for a lot of people, it's a very highfalutin, a little convoluted to apply. And I also think it's too long a model for what a lot of rapid fire marketing needs today. It's just one model. So I think one of the things I wanted to offer was an alternate way of creating storytelling together. Just we can veer off the hero's journey. Not everything has to be the hero's journey.
John Azoni:
Right. For people who don't know what the hero's journey is, Kathy, give us your take on what that is.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Well, the hero's journey is, you know, Joseph Campbell's sort of famous, you know, the inciting incident, the hero is called to adventure and answers the call and faces, you know, all kinds of obstacles. And really it's an inner battle of, they're changed, but there's a mentor and a guide and all these things along the way. It's a wonderful model, but it is a convoluted model. It is hard for people to get their arms around. And when you're talking about social media and short attention spans, often, you know, it's got 12 steps. If you look at the whole model, ain't nobody got time for that in marketing. And I think serial storytelling can be that, but when you're talking about short videos and short bursts of like capturing attention, you've got to act quickly. And I think it's a wonderful model, but it's only the beginning. It's only the beginning. It doesn't even answer the whole story. So it's just one model out there.
John Azoni:
Yeah, and I think that modern social media content marketing has really started to redefine what storytelling
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yeah.
John Azoni:
means. And I'm
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yeah.
John Azoni:
reading a book by the creators of The Moth story hour through NPR, and they unpack a lot of the stories that get that shared there and how they how they met for the storytellers and stuff like that. And it's really
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
and
John Azoni:
interesting.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
high.
John Azoni:
And what goes on through my mind is like. That's a format where that hero's journey makes a lot of sense. And a lot of the stuff that they're applying to these stories, you can do that in a 20-minute narrative. But when we're talking about a minute-long video, sometimes
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
No,
John Azoni:
it's like,
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
it doesn't get there.
John Azoni:
it's just you can't, yeah, you really, there's so much variety that might not be like traditional storytelling. but it's still effective in the same way that a story can be. It still can transport you and make you feel something, but we have to tackle it a little bit differently. And I think, and that's why I like the, that's why I like the storytelling books that are applied to business, because I think they're more realistic in how we can
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yeah.
John Azoni:
use that kind of content in today's marketing world and leadership.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yeah. Well, I think it's, I think it's an old model and it's a great model, but honestly it doesn't fit most marketing. And I would argue it doesn't. And I know there there's a lot of people that would argue it does, but I disagree. I think it is not a collaborative model. It is a, you know, honestly, most people use it as the company as the hero rather than the customer as the hero. So it's, it's misapplied. So I would argue that, uh, it needs an update. Not only that, but it's very embedded in Silicon Valley where I live and I came out of tech and a lot of CEOs saw themselves as the hero and I was like, no, no, that's the problem is that we never make the shift to the customer as the hero. And that's where the model goes awry. And that's where a collaborative story model that comes from improv works so much better because you are literally building these stories with your customers. and bringing them into the story. And that is a much better model. And that's really sort of the long-winded way of saying, stop boring me, really flips, I think, the storytelling models on their heads. Yeah.
John Azoni:
Yeah, for sure. So in your book, you talk about eight lessons of improvisations. And I wanted to,
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Mm-hmm.
John Azoni:
I thought we could kind of touch on each of those. And that could
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yeah.
John Azoni:
kind of make up the majority of this episode.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yeah.
John Azoni:
So let's so number one is take risks. So what
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Take risks,
John Azoni:
just
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
yeah. Ha ha, vamp, vogue,
John Azoni:
Yeah.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
mm. That's what vampiness, mm mm. You know, I think take risks is really, I think what happens with so many companies is we're so hung up on dashboard metrics and ROI and KPIs and you know, YLYs and you know. Ha ha ha, and all these little metrics, it's like, ah, we're metric horny, we're metric horny, and I get it, and I came out of, you know, tech. But I think we missed the bigger point is we're so hung up on that, that we're afraid to deviate and take bigger risks. And part of what we always have to be looking at in any part of the company, not just marketing is, how do we have small little experiments to see what could work? Sometimes the ideas that we go, I don't know if that'll work, could be worth exploring. And I think marketing has to constantly be experimenting. And we play it safe too much, I think way too much.
John Azoni:
Yeah, I think when we make big investments in one campaign that's maybe ill-researched or you haven't tested
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yeah.
John Azoni:
it yet, I think that's where I've seen organizations go wrong, especially smaller organizations that aren't doing the market research, but their marketing team and their small marketing team conference room bubble has come up with what they think is a good idea and they haven't experienced what... is most commonly like the stuff that you think is a good idea, a lot of times is not. And the stuff that you just think is like kind of a flippant like, oh, whatever. Sometimes that's the stuff that takes off. And so it's like these little micro, that's why I like about content marketing is it can be like such a good testing, proving ground for
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yes.
John Azoni:
these little micro messaging points.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
micro experiments and also to be careful about the trap of research. I'll just say this. I think we get in this mindset of, Oh, well, the research says the research don't mean shit. Research don't mean shit. Um, that's right. I'm a comedian, so I get to say these things. Uh, but you know, I think we fall into this trap of, well, we researched it. Sometimes things are new to the world. Right? I mean, the Palm Pilot was new to the world. People didn't have any way to compare what it was because the idea, the only other time it had been tried was Apple's Newton, the handwriting recognition. This is a long time ago. They didn't like it because it was new to the world, but it became a sensation and it took off. So sometimes we think, oh, well, they won't like something. They say they don't want it. But sometimes when it's an idea that's new to the world, They've never seen it, they have nothing to compare it to. Just because your research says it won't work does not mean that when an idea is released out there in small experiments, that some part of the population will go, that's innovative, but I didn't know it in advance until I see it in action. So let's be careful about what the research says, because sometimes the research is based on preconceived notions of what we think people want. So be careful about that.
John Azoni:
Right, right.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yeah.
John Azoni:
Whenever someone says Palm Pilot, I think of being like 10 years old in church and my mom had a Palm Pilot and that's,
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yeah.
John Azoni:
and I would like play whatever games there were and then like
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yep.
John Azoni:
I would win the game and it would like start like making all these noises like do do do do do do do. And I
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yep. Yep.
John Azoni:
was like trying to shut it off really quick.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
And it took off. It was so we can never truly know. And that's just a cautionary tale of being, don't be afraid to push the envelope because people can't not like something they've never seen before. You ask them, would you like this? No, they've never had anything to compare it to. That doesn't mean that it wouldn't take off. And then as we know, Palm Pilot took off. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
John Azoni:
Absolutely. Okay. So number two is go for emotional truth. I like this one. So tell me how this applies
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
So comedy is emotional truth. The truth is that's what comedy is. Comedy is, says the things that we all think but we don't say. Like I might say something like, you know, in comedy it's like, you know, my husband, he has a real alcohol problem. When I drink, he becomes a totally different person. I just, I don't know why that happens. You know, there's a truth in there. And we're laughing and I'm using a little example of misdirection, which is big in comedy. But the thing about comedy, which is storytelling, all comedy is storytelling, is that it's a truth there. There's an emotional truth that we go, uh-huh, yep, yep. We all recognize that if we drink, we become different people. But in this instance, I'm flipping it. So I think if storytelling told more truth, like comedy does, we would have more emotionally resonant stories. So much of business storytelling is transactional. And it's got no emotions, it's got no stakes. There's no stakes. I don't give a crap because the characters are like, you know, Nancy and Bob over at whatever company, X, Y, Z company, they had a need and we solved it. Yay, we saved the day. And you're like, who the hell are these people and why do I even care? I don't know. There's no humanity. So I think in B2B, we're still. We're still in this like, gotta play it safe, sanitize it all, but there's just no emotional stakes if there's no hidden humanity. So tell me what do Bob and Nancy need and what happens if they don't get their need met? Are they gonna get fired? Do they have to lay off people? And does it kill their soul because it's a family-run company? Give me that emotional resonance. I promise you, it'll make your story so much better. That's the emotional truth. That's the emotional truth.
John Azoni:
Yeah, and I find in, you know, the video work that I've done is that when there's a battle between an informational video and a storytelling video, it's really hard to go down that real authentic route. I think the person, you know, producing the video or commissioning the video, whatever, has to understand, like, what is this thing? Are we telling a story? Then let's tell an actual story. If
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Tell
John Azoni:
this
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
them.
John Azoni:
needs to be, like, a sales pitch, let's not... let's not try to push it in the story direction. Because I find that like, yeah, it's like, okay, we're spending too much time talking about what, you know, Bob and Nancy needed and what the stakes were. We actually just wanted to tell them about our product. You know.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Well, yeah, and there's a place for that. And there's even a place for storytelling in a sales pitch, but to your point, short, short. Like that's where you have to get to the point. Doesn't mean you have to sacrifice story. You just have to make the story much shorter. But to your point, yeah, you just have to know what context you're in.
John Azoni:
Yeah, and I think that what I love about comedy, and especially in like, you know, the sort of TikTok era of like, this micro skits and things like that.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yeah! That's fun, right?
John Azoni:
It is fun. We realize how, I mean, at least for me, I realize how much alike I am, like how other people, the things that I find that are frustrating about marriage or parenting or whatever are the same stuff that everyone else is frustrated about.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Everybody! These are universal stories and that's exactly the point, John. It's a universal. If you're annoyed with your spouse, everybody's annoyed with their spouse. If you're struggling because your kids were at home during COVID and driving you nuts, they call it virtual like learning because the kids learned virtually nothing.
John Azoni:
Thanks for watching!
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
And there was a lot of crying going on. Forget the kids. It was me. It was me. They were hoped for two years. And I think these are such... universals and that's exactly the point is that these things connect us. Why are we not talking about these common human feelings and experiences? That's what comedy does.
John Azoni:
Yeah, and then when we're making ourselves the hero or the company of the hero, people can't relate to that. People can't relate to everything's great all the time and also they don't care. There's nothing
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yeah.
John Azoni:
in it for them if you're awesome.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yeah.
John Azoni:
It's like,
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yep.
John Azoni:
okay, good for you, next.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yep.
John Azoni:
But that's what I love about comedy and stuff is you get a sense for, okay, we're the same. This person gets me. and
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yeah.
John Azoni:
I'm more emotionally connected to that
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Exactly.
John Azoni:
person. And if it's a brand, then it's, you know, emotionally more connected to the brand. Yeah.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Absolutely, absolutely. But the brand has to be human and that's one of the biggest things I think, in all this stuff that we're talking about is that, too many brands are like the company. I don't give a crap about the company. Show me the humans behind the company because I can't hug or high five a company. But I wanna know that the people at the company are like me and get me. And that they during COVID wanted to strangle their spouse, but they didn't do it cause they were strong.
John Azoni:
I'm out.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
We're all driving each other crazy. Am I not? I mean, we all were and that's such a human thing. And I wanna know that that is what is. And I think we're so afraid to go there, but that's exactly the place we need to go. And that's why comedy is and remains the best storytelling that I personally know.
John Azoni:
Perfect, love it. Number three is this idea of yes and, and you've mentioned
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Mm-hmm.
John Azoni:
this idea of co-creating
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yep.
John Azoni:
something together,
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yep.
John Azoni:
so unpack that for us.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
So yes, and is the cornerstone of improv. And you probably have listeners that are familiar because they've taken improv. There's so many other parts of improv, like make your partner look good on all these other things. But the central tenant is yes and, and what that means is it doesn't mean we never say no. It doesn't mean that at all. Some people get it wrong. They go, oh, well, you can never say no. And I'm like, no, you don't understand improv. And I know this, I've been doing this for two and a half decades. What it means is when we're creating, on stage or together. So maybe we're in a brainstorming room. This is what that that'll be our stage. And so in practical terms, it means John, you and I are brainstorming. If all I do is go, yes, but yes, but or no, but we never move forward because I'm shooting down all your ideas and yes, but it's not a yes, it's a but. But what yes, and does that when we're building together and we want to move forward, me saying yes. And then adding onto that idea gives that idea forward momentum. And we're building something together. So if you go, hey, you know, the next podcast, I want to like have it from a hot air balloon. And I'm all, ooh, yeah. And you know what else would be cool? Like, let's have balloons. Let's like have a clown, like, you know, juggling inside that, you know. Okay, we might come up with some silly ideas. That's not the point. Some of those ideas will be viable. But just because we said yes and we keep things moving versus getting trapped with no but and yes but, which shuts everybody down. And that's such an important concept because when we're live on a stage, when I perform an improv with my teammates, the only way the scene moves forward is when people yes and. You don't wanna go to an improv show and see people go, yes but, that won't work. No but, you're like, what the hell, I could just stay home. I can stay home and have my teenagers do this stuff to me. But the reason you go to a show is to see something happen. Well, it's the same in brainstorming as staying in our teams. If we yes anded each other's ideas, we would have forward momentum. I can't tell you how important that principle is. Yeah.
John Azoni:
That's one of the best pieces of marriage advice too, that I've got like marriage communication. It's like, you don't say, you know, I love you, but you say it's and, you're great.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
And, if you're
John Azoni:
And
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
not...
John Azoni:
also here's something
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yes.
John Azoni:
that we need to work on.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yes. Yes, because it says, I hear you. What Yes and really says is, I hear you, I see you, and I'm gonna add onto it. And the mistake that we make is we think, if I Yes and somebody, I have to do it. You do not. We might come up with some crazy ass ideas, you and me, John together. We would have a lot of fun, but maybe only, I don't know, 20% or less are viable, but that's not the point. The point is by Yes and in each other, we came up with... 20% viable ideas that we never would have had otherwise. That's the point. And we take the ones, we vet those, and then we move forward on those. So you don't have to literally do every idea, but yes, Anne, it's such a powerful way to say, I see you, I hear you, and I add on to your genius. And that's how we build together.
John Azoni:
And I think that's a good, you know, in the storytelling context, at least in the documentary storytelling context, when you're interviewing somebody, that's such a great way to get more, like deeper responses
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yep.
John Azoni:
out of them than
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yep.
John Azoni:
saying, they finished their sentence and then the next question. That can just shuts down the conversation. But if you say, yeah, and I bet you felt this or I bet, you know, like this was going on in your mind, that I've seen so many people just melt right there. Oh, somebody gets me and now now I'm going to give you more, you know, you know, vulnerability
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yeah,
John Azoni:
here.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
for sure. That's exactly right. And when you say yes and to somebody, they feel heard and they open up. And when you yes, but people, it's like, I'm going to shut down because you know what I mean? Want want. You're saying you hear my ideas, but you're just saying but but but but but.
John Azoni:
Yeah. So number four, make your partner look good.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Mm-hmm,
John Azoni:
How, how,
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
yeah.
John Azoni:
yeah, tell us about that.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Well, make your partner look good as an extension. It's really an offshoot of yes and, because when I yes and you, I'm like, John, your idea is slammin'. Yours, okay, that's a slappin' idea. Versus yes, but, yes, but. And all of a sudden, I'm building on something you said, and I'm seeing magic in what you said. I'm seeing possibility. And on an improv stage, it doesn't matter how crazy, how weird it is. That's what audiences love is that we're able to create this world. And the reason we're able to keep the story moving is because of that. And somebody might have a crazy idea, but in real life, you know, too many of us are yes, buddy, not, but what if we just made our partner look good? I mean, what if, you know, I was in a scene, um, with somebody one time and. They were like a, they were like the, um, the Matt, the crazy genius sales guy. And he would just come in and he would lick objects, uh, lick objects all over. And I was like, you know what? Bob licks all the objects. Sure, he's gonna get some horrible disease and probably die from it, but here's the thing. He brings in more revenue than anybody else combined. So you know what we're gonna do before every sales meeting, everybody? We're all gonna lick those objects, follow Bob's lead.
John Azoni:
Hahaha.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
And we have this amazing scene that the audience was rolling in hysterics in, but the only reason we could get there, John, is because instead of what we normally do, Why you do that, Bob? That's dumb. Why did you? And crap on somebody. We elevated Bob's ideas and it was like, if it's good enough for crazy genius sales guy, Bob, we're all gonna do it. Let's celebrate that. And what if we did that in real life and made each other's ideas look amazing? And that's the heart and soul of improv thinking and one of the reasons I love it so much.
John Azoni:
And is that, are you thinking about that in a brainstorming sense? Like, say,
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Hell yeah.
John Azoni:
you know, higher
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Hell
John Azoni:
ed marketing,
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
yeah.
John Azoni:
this is our audience and you're in a marketing team and you're throwing around ideas. Is that kind of like the make your partner look good or are you talking about the actual, like somehow, or the piece of content that you create making that person look good or?
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
All of it, all of it. I think it's every one of those contexts. I think the first context is really, before we can create that content, is being in the brainstorming room and really celebrating somebody's crazy idea. Think of all the crazy ideas that people crapped on, but then it was like they were runaway successes. What if we changed our thinking to go, there might be something there. There might be something. So again, you don't have to do the idea, but what if we explored it? And that's what this is. It's making your partner look good is about exploration. That's what it is. And maybe out of that comes this really wonderful piece of content, John, where you celebrate somebody you never would have thought was possible. But that crazy idea came out of this whole making your partner look good.
John Azoni:
Cool, love it. Number five is listen. what you got for us. I'm listening.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Well, what if every time you said something to me, I cut you off? You can't yes and the person who does that. And one of the biggest lessons I think about improv is really listening for ideas. It's listening to something somebody said and being willing to explore that. What if you said something, I don't know, just random, and what if I talked over you, compared to you, what if I backed it up and I went, ooh, that's interesting, tell me more. And I think every day we drop ideas and possibilities because we're really not listening, and most of us are in our heads thinking about what we're gonna say next. And I'm not judging it, look, we're all guilty of it, we're human, it's okay, we're all human beings, it's okay. And I thought I could listen well. until over two decades ago, I started doing improv and stand up. And it completely shifted the way that I listen. Now I listen for crazy ideas and I'm like, let's not pass on that nugget so fast because there might be something amazing there.
John Azoni:
Yeah, I love that. And I was thinking too, I heard somewhere that the creators of Everybody Loves Raymond, that he would say, he would say like, okay, to his whole team, he would say, I want you to go home and fight with your spouse and come and tell me about it. You know, cause it, cause and that, I love that show cause it's just so, it's so funny and it's so true. And it's like, you only get that. by really listening to the
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Listen.
John Azoni:
real stuff that's going on in life.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
by listening and there's so many amazing ideas all around us every day. And how many of those do we miss because we're just in our own heads? And don't feel bad, there's no judgment. We're all human beings, we're all just trying to survive. The last three years have not been easy for everybody. And I think that, I think we have to have compassion for ourselves, but to the extent that we listen, truly listen to what people say and what they don't say, you know, body language, things like that. I think we open up so many different. I love the idea of listening to people's fights because that'll tell you a lot about them, huh? Yeah.
John Azoni:
favorite episode is this I don't know if you've seen the show it's a suitcase episode
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
YELLOWS!
John Azoni:
they
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
And I'm like, okay, that thing's gonna stay there till it grows legs and it walks away because principles at stake for me and I will not clean up your suitcase. And I've done that to to my now 14 year old son who just got back from a trip. And I was like, you know, last last year he got back from a trip and he just left his suitcase and I was like, I am not doing it. I am not doing it. I am not doing it. And every day it's out there and I was like, it can grow legs and start talking with a moldy beard for all I care. It's the principle. But it's so true, right? Yes,
John Azoni:
Yeah.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
and that was such a profound nothing moment. That is everything because it's so relatable. Yeah.
John Azoni:
Yeah, a nothing moment is so true. And I love how Deborah turns around. She's like, all right, Ray, I'll be the one that gets it. And then he's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
I'll
John Azoni:
no, no,
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
be-
John Azoni:
no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yup.
John Azoni:
no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yup.
John Azoni:
no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
second now, who's the bigger person? I know, and it's such a silly, stupid, funny moment, but it's so small, but it's so powerful and relatable and true. And those are the nothing moments that are something, because the nothing moments you might dismiss are something moments. You just have to look for those things. Yeah, yeah.
John Azoni:
Absolutely. Okay, tell stories is number six.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Comedy is storytelling. It's really me being revelatory on a stage and whether it's standup or if it's improv and building a story with other people. And so comedy really is storytelling. I think if we can just remember that with marketing, it's all driven by emotions and it doesn't have to be a perfect story. It just has to be a story where something changed and there's emotional resonance and you'd be surprised. You wouldn't be, but maybe listeners might be surprised at how little stories of truth, and this really great example of the suitcase is one of them. A little tiny story that contains big human truth can change everything. That's what we remember. Yeah.
John Azoni:
Absolutely.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yeah.
John Azoni:
Number seven is let go.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Let go. We don't have to be perfect. We're not perfect. Human beings are messy. I'm messy. You're messy. Because we're human. We're all messy. I think one of the things that scares people about even improv or thinking in humor ways about storytelling, for example, is that we think we have to be perfect. We have to be funny. We don't. The funniest moments are the ones of the deepest human truth as we're talking about, because we all relate. I mean... I can think of, you know, 20 different things off the top of my head that we probably all can relate to from parenting to marriage to like, you know, homeschooling to working from home to like the suitcase to the fact that my kids won't shut a door when they go to the bathroom. They'll be talking to me with it. And I'm like, you need to shut that door. I do not. We do not need this. Right. There's so many everyday truths that make us more human and relatable. And I think those are the moments we really have to we have to focus on. And we don't have to be perfect, so let go. I think people are ashamed to show the world maybe they're not perfect, but here's the reality. Guys, we already know. Nobody's perfect, I'm not perfect. We know that. And perfect isn't funny. You know what's funny? Imperfect. So instead of trying to hide those moments, why don't we take those imperfections and laugh and share them? Because that's what's relatable. Those are the moments, the suitcase moments.
John Azoni:
I love the progressive commercials that are like, you know, try not to be like your parents, because
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
They're
John Azoni:
I mean,
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
hilarious.
John Azoni:
I'm in that sweet spot of my life where I'm seeing the crossover of like, the stuff that I always just thought was so dumb. And now I'm like, here I am doing the same thing. Like when I, you know, early on in my marriage, my father-in-law, he took me hunting and, you know, we go hunting with all these college buddies. And I remember this one time I left the light on in my cabin bedroom and he just like kept getting on me about like leaving a light on in a room that you're not in. And I'm like, OK, you know, Mike, that's like five cents. OK, send me the invoice, you know. And then but now like I've got kids and oh my God, they leave so
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
I know.
John Azoni:
many lights on. I had my morning routine. is taking the kids to school, coming home, turning off all the lights, turning off all the air conditioning units and things, and it drives me nuts. And I just think,
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
It's...
John Azoni:
yeah, that's funny
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
It's-
John Azoni:
though. Like that's like that embracing imperfection, embracing the fact that like I am my own father. I care more about my grass than I ever thought I would.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
It's so true. It's hilarious. My husband used to tease me because my mother, who's not with us anymore, but in spirit, she was such a mom. I'm in the middle of five kids, so food. If we go to her house, lots and lots of food. And her way of expressing love was, oh, let me pack this food up. And I was like, mom, I don't need any more. And it was like, don't argue with me. Just take the food. And my husband would be like, we'll be here for two hours arguing. take the damn food. We can we cannot eat it later. He's like my husband take the food. And now with my it's funny with my own kids with my relatives. I'm like can I get you a care package and they're like no no there they are trying to slip out the door before here comes Kathy she's gonna like have pond food and just all the stuff that we do and it's like oh my god I have become my mom and just those are funny moments and I think they happen to all of us and if we talked about this stuff more and really dealt with the reality of everyday life for our customers and just funny moments, I think we would be so much better off, it would be more honest, brands would be more relatable. Imperfect,
John Azoni:
Absolutely,
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
yeah.
John Azoni:
love it. And then number eight is embrace for imperfection which is kind of running parallel to it.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yeah, he's letting go. Yeah, embrace it. I'm so over the whole brands that have to be perfect and present an image with a bow. And I'm like, you ain't fooling nobody. You ain't fooling nobody. Cause you know behind there, there's like, you know something's going on in that room or the people making the brand. You know somebody's not wearing pants. Like John has not got the memo that he's gotta wear pants back to the office. I wanna see that. I wanna see the... the humans behind the brand, because I think that would do so much more to being relatable. And it's something that I've been saying for many, many years and it's never changed. In all the years that I've worked with brands or other places in organizations that I work with, it's the same stuff. It doesn't change. And I think if we lean into these moments, honestly, I think we're all having more fun, we're better off. And it's amazing how many people, John, you probably relate, aren't having fun anymore in their jobs because we've forgotten all these human things. And if we allowed ourselves self-compassion and grace to show up that way and to have these moments and brainstorms and content will be better. Our jobs would be better. And I think we're there. I think we need a revolution in the way we think. And improv thinking is, I think, a part of how we change things. Yeah.
John Azoni:
Absolutely. The other thing I wanted to talk about is the idea and I love, this is what I love and this is what I think really sets stories apart is specific.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Mmm.
John Azoni:
Specifics matter.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yeah.
John Azoni:
Audiences remember specifics
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yes,
John Azoni:
that
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
yes.
John Azoni:
you said in your book. And that's another thing that they talk about in that. I they really harp on like, you have to bring people down to the ground level with specific moments,
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
You
John Azoni:
otherwise
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
do.
John Azoni:
you're kind of glossing over, it's not emotionally resonating as well as it could. So tell me your thoughts on that.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Well, you know, the interesting thing is that we have to be careful about which specifics, because if we give too many specifics, we can lose people, as you know. And so it's picking the right specifics that matter. You know, I think I tell the story in the book that, you know, I didn't, I didn't get to study with, with Del Close, but there's a friend of mine, an improv instructor I had years ago, knew Mike Meyer and knew Del Close, who everybody knows Del Close of, you know, Chicago improv fame. And, you know, Mike Meyer was doing a scene and he, in the scene, he offered somebody a soda and Del Close famously said, be more specific, that's generic. And so there's a scene where Mike Meyer said, may I offer you a Delaware punch? Now that is so specific. It's the difference between, well, let me go park my car versus, well, let me go park my cherry red vintage. Corvette. I'll be right back." And now all of a sudden we get a sense of who the person is, the character, the specifics. Ooh, they like things just right. They like loud colors. They're bright. They're a big personality. So I think the specifics we give can make a big difference in that, but we have to be careful to make sure that it's relevant. Otherwise, I think we lose people. But picking the right specifics. If your story is about a colorful character, make sure that the or specific and memorable.
John Azoni:
Yeah, as a video editor, I think half the battle is removing specifics, but also finding specifics to put in there that are going to be relevant, that are going to move the story forward, because there's so much of editing and text-based editing, too. It's just like, what are we taking out?
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yep. Yep.
John Azoni:
Really, and I really... That's one thing I learned from watching comedians is
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Mm-hmm.
John Azoni:
I listen to... podcast called Nate Lands, Nate Bargetzi's
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
John Azoni:
podcast.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
I like
John Azoni:
Yeah,
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
him, yeah.
John Azoni:
he's great. And he taught and he they often taught, you know, it's him and three other comics, they often talk about, like, you know, the mechanics of comedy and
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yeah.
John Azoni:
delivering a bit and things like that. And they talk about like, one episode, they talked a lot about just the importance of tightening that up. And like, you, you can be funny, but there's a different, there's a difference of just being a witty person and being able to deliver a tight performance,
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yes.
John Azoni:
a tight message. And I think that really applies a lot to marketing, at least in my world of video. Make it tighter, make it tighter, make it tighter. I used to edit trailers for Netflix for a brief moment, and that was one of the things that I learned so much was that trailer has to be so, so tight. And I always thought I would deliver the first draft, I'd be like, this is as tight as I can make it. And they would come back and be like, it's gotta be tighter.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
It's gotta
John Azoni:
You
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
be tighter.
John Azoni:
know.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
It's gotta be. It's so true. When we do a setup in standup, that setup before we get to the punchline, if it meanders, people forget what the setup was. So when we give the punchline, it's like, what the hell, I forgot. There's too many random things. So we call it squeezing the water out. And we gotta squeeze the water out of that setup. Any extra stuff that doesn't add, anything has to go. So by the time you get to, you know. your punchline, it's really, really tight, you know? And yeah, it's exactly right. And it is an art, it is an art, and it's a lot of craft, it's a lot of experimentation, yeah.
John Azoni:
Absolutely.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yeah.
John Azoni:
Awesome, well this has been great. Where can people find you at?
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Well, you can always find me at keepingithuman.com. You can also find me on LinkedIn. Although, because I've been traveling, back to traveling a lot lately, my DMs are a little bit of a nightmare. They're kind of the suitcase on the stairs situation. I'm working on it, I'm working on it. But LinkedIn's a great place, Keeping It Human's a great place. Always down to have conversations. So, and all that good stuff. And yes, you can still get the book. uh, on Amazon. Um, I am updating the book so I don't have the electronic version available yet because that is being, because it's, we're working on the next version of it. So yeah.
John Azoni:
Cool, awesome. Well, it is
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Yeah.
John Azoni:
a great book.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Thank
John Azoni:
I recommend
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
you.
John Azoni:
anyone check it out.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Thank you.
John Azoni:
And yeah, thanks, Kathy. Appreciate you being on the show.
Kathy Klotz-Guest:
Thank you. Thanks for having me, John.
