#43 - Your “WHY” is not your story
w/ JOHN AZONI
Podcast Host
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SHOW NOTES
In this solo episode, John explores the true meaning of "storytelling" and how it differs from creative messaging in marketing. He discusses how the term has become diluted in higher ed, with many thinking creative messaging equals storytelling.
Key takeaways:
Marketing teams often claim to be telling stories when they are really just presenting information about their school in a creative, emotional way. This is creative messaging, not actual storytelling.
Actual stories have a narrative arc with plot, characters, and a sequence of events that happens to someone. Listeners imagine the events unfolding. This triggers specific brain chemistry related to empathy.
Creative messaging can still be impactful, but it does not provide the same emotional transportation and brand imprinting as a compelling narrative story.
We need to be careful about using “storytelling” loosely. Ask what someone means when they say they want to tell better stories. Do they want narrative storytelling? Or enhanced messaging?
Stories make sense for top-of-funnel brand awareness. Further down the funnel, creative info may be more relevant. Know when a story is appropriate.
Language evolves over time. “Storytelling” is used more loosely now in marketing. But we should still preserve the distinction between stories and messaging.
Connect with John:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnazoni
Learn more about UNVEILD: https://unveild.tv
Join The Newsletter: https://unveild.tv/newsletter
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Transcript (done with AI so only about 90% accurate):
00:00:00:05 - 00:00:23:08
John Azoni
Well, welcome to the show. I've had this episode on my mind for a while now, and I'm just kind of sitting down now to put voice to microphone here. And so this episode is just going to be me talking. It's a solo episode and and we'll be back next week with our next guest. But I just wanted to share some thoughts with you.
00:00:23:21 - 00:00:44:04
John Azoni
We'd love your feedback. Feel free to get in touch with me and share with me your thoughts on the following. I came across a post on LinkedIn last week that got me thinking about how we define the word story. And if you get my newsletter, this this content here might be a little familiar to you, but we're going to go a little bit deeper into that.
00:00:44:04 - 00:01:14:03
John Azoni
This is me repurposing that newsletter content into an entire podcast episode here. So the Post is all about how you should be telling your why instead of directly pitching your product, because your story is what inspires people. Your story matters. Everyone has a story, all of that and all that's true. These are the things that, you know, if you go to a lot of creatives, websites or people with a vested interest in storytelling or videographers, photographers tell your story.
00:01:14:03 - 00:01:36:00
John Azoni
Everyone has a story and all that's true. However, there's kind of a disconnect there. Top of funnel content or content where you're trying to build awareness of your your brand is not the place to pitch your product. That's true. That's a great place to tell stories. And your why does matter. And the author posted a video as an example of what you should be doing instead.
00:01:36:00 - 00:01:59:08
John Azoni
And so I watched that the people interviewed in the video talked all about how they care about their customers, how they want to create a welcoming experience at their store, and they offer the best products possible and stuff like that. It's like a grocery store. There's a nice emotive song underneath it. It was it was beautifully shot. The lighting, the camerawork, all of it was super nice.
00:01:59:08 - 00:02:19:11
John Azoni
And, you know, I was impressed. Was honestly pretty compelling, too. Like, I found myself leaning into, you know, what the business was about and, you know, feeling like, man, if I needed groceries. And it was between that place and another place, I would probably go to that that place that has, you know, that I now I kind of know their why and they've kind of, you know, engaged me emotionally.
00:02:20:05 - 00:02:38:12
John Azoni
So it had a lot of things going for it. One major thing that it didn't have going for it was a story. So think of it like this. If I said, Hey, I've got a great story to tell you, you know, you're going to love this story. There's this one business they care about their customers. They offer great products.
00:02:39:08 - 00:03:00:00
John Azoni
People that work there have worked there for years because they treat their employees really well and they love their jobs. And you should shop there. End of story. You'd be very confused, like you're waiting for me to get to the actual story. So here's what I need you to understand about storytelling. Just because you communicate your why does not mean you've told a story.
00:03:00:14 - 00:03:31:09
John Azoni
And putting an emotional song underneath your why still doesn't make it a story. Having really cinematic camera movements still doesn't make it a story, and having someone tearing up on camera, getting emotional doesn't make it a story. All of that is still just information. And I think we too often, very often confuse the thing. We think that everything that has some sort of emotion or is artful or something is a story.
00:03:31:09 - 00:04:02:14
John Azoni
And so, you know, instead of pitching your product, you should be telling your story. But there's very little storytelling going on that I find with a lot of people that say that type of stuff, because the definition of storytelling has gotten very watered down. This is rampant in the marketing world, not just higher. Ed A lot of people claim to be storytellers when what they actually mean is they're marketers who package information in a creative way, and that's not necessarily storytelling.
00:04:02:14 - 00:04:22:12
John Azoni
And there's no gatekeeping here. I want it. I want everyone to be telling stories. I would love for everyone to call themselves a storyteller. I'm not saying that you don't deserve to call yourself a storyteller. And in fact, I don't even consider myself to be some master storyteller. I'm just a dude who's into marketing and incorporating stories into marketing.
00:04:22:12 - 00:04:45:00
John Azoni
It's just something that I enjoy learning about. I enjoy talking about it, I enjoy interviewing people about it. But I, I think we can all agree that the people who wrote like Ted Lasso or the people who wrote I don't know, Inception or Barbie or whatever, like those people that write movies, that write novels, Harry Potter, ET cetera.
00:04:45:09 - 00:05:12:16
John Azoni
Those are storytellers of the purest form. And being a master of narrative and a master of messaging are two different things. The story is this happened, then this happened. And because of that, this happened. And this is how things ended up. A story keeps you wondering what's going to happen next. You're wondering how things will resolve. A story takes you on a journey where you're envisioning these events playing out in your mind as cognitive scientist.
00:05:12:16 - 00:05:38:21
John Azoni
Roger Shenk puts it quote, Stories happen to someone. They have a plot. If you can't picture yourself telling your friend this story of your organization, your institution, or a particular student or faculty member, if you can't tell this story without imagining a look of utter confusion on their face, chances are you're just communicating information. Can you still move somebody emotionally with your why told it in a compelling way?
00:05:38:21 - 00:06:01:04
John Azoni
Absolutely. And you should be communicating your why whenever possible, because it's super important to your message. But your why is not your story. Your story illustrates your why. The why is part of your story. But it isn't the story. A student being interviewed on camera saying, I'm a student at such and such college and I like it for these reasons.
00:06:01:04 - 00:06:22:22
John Azoni
And my favorite professor is so-and-so. And here's why. And everyone should come here because it's an amazing school and it'll change your life. All of that is great information. There's probably a lot of great why stuff in there. Not a story. A story would be I'm a student at such and such college. I remember the first day I stepped on campus as a freshman, first day of college, I was nervous.
00:06:22:22 - 00:06:42:14
John Azoni
I woke up. My stomach was kind of in knots. I didn't know what to expect. When I walked on campus, I met people who took an interest in me. You know, they wanted to know more about me. I felt so relieved. I felt comfortable. And then this happened because of that. This happened. Then this happened. And looking back on my time at such and such college, all of those events are why I think this place is amazing.
00:06:42:14 - 00:07:04:03
John Azoni
Just as just kind of an off the cuff example. I'm sure there are way more compelling narratives than that, but you get the idea. Like stories are things that happen, a series of events connected together that result in something and they happen to somebody or some group of people. The reason it matters to get that distinction right is that actual stories trigger specific brain chemistry.
00:07:04:03 - 00:07:28:14
John Azoni
And this is why this is why I kind of, you know, I've spent years figuring out why does it irks me when someone says something is a story, and it's not because they never want to come across like arrogant or condescending or anything. Like I'm because again, I'm not like this master storyteller. But what I do see is like, what I do celebrate is like what storytelling actually does to the brain.
00:07:29:04 - 00:07:51:03
John Azoni
And if we're thinking that we're taking advantage of that because this storytelling word is popular, if we're thinking, we're telling stories and we're accessing that science when we're not, that's I think, what kind of bugs me. It's like we need to understand what it is that we mean when we say tell your story or such and such told a story or this is a story or this is my story.
00:07:52:08 - 00:08:19:04
John Azoni
We need to sort of separate an actual story from maybe the looser use of the word story, because storytelling, it's a word that's used in multiple different ways. And I and I recognize that. But the reason it matters, neuroscience has shown that hearing and telling stories triggers the release of oxytocin, the bonding hormone, allowing us to emotionally connect with others.
00:08:19:04 - 00:08:41:20
John Azoni
Stories also activate the brain's sensory cortex. I'm not a scientist or a doctor, but this is just the stuff that I have studied and learned, and these are the words that they use. And so these are the words that I'm sharing with you. The brain's sensory cortex, creating immersive mental simulations that help us relate to the characters and events.
00:08:41:20 - 00:09:12:17
John Azoni
In other words, you're imagining these things playing out in your mind when someone tells you a story. You're following that story with your brain, with pictures that your brain is coming up with to illustrate the story in your mind. That's very different than when someone tells you about a product and its features and benefits. And to think that we're accessing that brain chemistry and all the benefits of storytelling in marketing when we're actually just, you know, communicating information in a fancy way would be a disservice to our marketing efforts, to our institutions as a whole.
00:09:12:20 - 00:09:39:18
John Azoni
So I worked with an organization many years ago. They were having this big professional development event, people flying in from all over the world to be in this cohort. And they said to me they, you know, they wanted this story. This I was working as a creative director, a previous production company. And so they came to us with this project and they wanted to tell a story, the story of all these people coming and stuff like that and being in one spot together.
00:09:40:09 - 00:09:55:20
John Azoni
So okay, so we do a whole workshop, creative direction workshop. We come up with all the pillars of the story. What's important to communicate all about? They're excited. We deliver them. We say, Here's the roadmap for this video, Here's the blueprint, here's what we think it should look like. Here's the music we think it should look like. Here's who we think should be in it.
00:09:56:06 - 00:10:20:17
John Azoni
Blah, blah, blah. Everyone's excited. Okay, great. We're all on the same page. Where should we shoot? This thing goes great. We edit, it goes great. We deliver the first draft and they didn't like it. Turns out they wanted a hype video. So upbeat music, people having fun, people learning and looking like they're having a meaningful experience. And, you know, it's upbeat and it's a vibe.
00:10:20:17 - 00:10:46:18
John Azoni
They wanted a vibe. They wanted a vibe. What they wanted was quite a bit different than an actual story. So we revamped it into a hype video and everyone was happy. Everyone lived happily ever after, and it just really underscored that there's a big separation between what many people mean when they say story and what an actual story is.
00:10:47:09 - 00:11:21:15
John Azoni
So now let's dig a little deeper into the science and psychology behind why storytelling is so uniquely powerful. When we hear a compelling narrative are mirror neurons activate as if we are experiencing the events ourselves so we intuitively understand the character's motivations and we feel their emotional ups and downs. MRI scans show that a good story can synchronize our brains as the protagonist succeeds, our dopamine spikes in our brains activate in a way where it's like we're literally sharing in that triumph.
00:11:21:15 - 00:11:56:05
John Azoni
Or if the main character is scared, we're feeling that fear. If they're upset, we're feeling that upset, we're empathizing. And when it comes to shaping beliefs and actions, studies have shown that the further transported or immersed someone is in a story, the more likely they are to align with the beliefs of the characters. So if your school is telling the story of a student who as an adult went back to school against all odds but believed in herself enough to make it happen, chances are the person watching that will empathize with that and believe in themselves in a similar way and perhaps act on those beliefs.
00:11:57:03 - 00:12:32:08
John Azoni
Master Storytellers ground their stories in sensory details that make imagined events feel tangible, and they understand the principles screenwriters follow, introduce compelling characters, build dramatic tension, and take audiences on an emotional arc. And look, a lot of marketing stories are not going to be as dramatic as a Harry Potter narrative arc for instance, and we don't have to overcomplicate this to be like, Oh, it's got to have conflict, it's got to have a main character and supporting characters and all this technical stuff.
00:12:32:08 - 00:13:03:06
John Azoni
And it has to follow this hero's journey, you know, the Joseph Campbell hero's journey, because marketing stories, they just they work differently. If you go back several episodes to look at the episode with Cathy Klotz guest and she she talks about how she talks about how marketing videos, there's a lot of sort of pressure to follow this hero's journey and tell us tell a very literal story with marketing videos and it just doesn't fit.
00:13:03:06 - 00:13:31:11
John Azoni
It just doesn't work in a marketing context much of the time. And I agree with her and so that's worth checking that out. Go back several episodes ago to Cathy Klopp's guest and watch that one about incorporating humor into your marketing. But at a very basic level, it just has to be a story. Things in order for us to really access this brain chemistry that's happening, when someone hears a story at a very basic level, it has to be a story.
00:13:31:11 - 00:13:47:22
John Azoni
Things have to happen in the narrative. There has to be a plot or else it's just information. Here's the flip side of of this. I don't know why I think about this a lot. It's really like a it's really like a tug of war. It's like it's kind of like, man, I wish more people said story. They actually meant story.
00:13:48:08 - 00:14:20:04
John Azoni
I wish when Marker said, Oh, we're we need to do a better job of telling our story or whatever that they really meant. Like, let's find out what our story, our narrative actually is and then tell that. But like I said, a lot of people use story in kind of a vague way. And so on the flip side of that, while I wish that the word story was a more protective word, like it actually meant, you know, meant what it's supposed to mean.
00:14:20:04 - 00:14:40:14
John Azoni
The flip side of that is that language changes, right? So I think I listened to this YouTube video once, something maybe a couple of years ago. I can't remember where I heard this, but it was about language and the evolution of language and how every generation tends to pick on the younger generation for using terms that don't align with what they were raised on.
00:14:41:17 - 00:15:06:01
John Azoni
And the guy in this video said it's not that new language is bad, it's just new. And so having said all of this about storytelling, I want to acknowledge the dual meaning of the word. Storytelling nowadays is used in a way that doesn't literally mean storytelling, as I've been saying, just like the word literally is often used nowadays in a way that doesn't literally mean literally.
00:15:06:17 - 00:15:29:18
John Azoni
Literally is just like kind of like an emphasis word. And so when marketers think of storytelling, we're often thinking of creative messaging. That's what we typically mean when we say storytelling, or at least that's maybe like what half the people mean when they say storytelling or saying something in a deeper, more impactful way, or communicating something with a deeper meaning.
00:15:29:18 - 00:15:49:05
John Azoni
Or it could mean sharing the meaningful identity of our institutions. You know, here's what we value. This is what we're about. This is our story. Much like the grocery store example I shared in the very beginning of this episode. That's kind of what that is. It's like, Yeah, we're a grocery store, but like, here's this deeper stuff that we value.
00:15:49:05 - 00:16:14:09
John Azoni
And so all of that together mixed with an emotional song and cinematic, you know very well shot footage leads someone to believe, Oh, we've told a story. And even on this podcast early on, I began to embrace this broader meaning of storytelling because I kind of felt like if my whole podcast is about literal stories and how to do that better in higher ed, I might run out of things to talk about.
00:16:14:09 - 00:16:39:01
John Azoni
And there's lots of stuff in the broader storytelling meaning of the word that I'm really interested in, like just content creation in general, sharing the values and the points of view of an institution, you know, over time, through small touch points of content, right? That's like sort of like broad storytelling. And so all of that to say, let's understand what we mean when we say storytelling or when we call something a story.
00:16:40:00 - 00:17:11:16
John Azoni
Are we talking about an actual story that's going to trigger very certain brain chemistry, or are we talking about creative or meaningfully presented information that's also going to trigger brain chemistry, just not in the same way and not with the same outcome and same benefits as a literal narrative story? Let's think about the difference between a commercial and a Netflix show that you're currently bingeing, whatever that show is.
00:17:12:13 - 00:17:41:03
John Azoni
Most recently for me, it was Love is Blind. I unapologetically, absolutely love that show. It is it it's part love to love it and part love to hate it. You know, it's just it's addicting. And what's addicting about it for me is like, what's going to happen and what's the outcome of this drama going to be? And really, like, I get bored if nothing is dramatic, like it's a boring season for me.
00:17:41:03 - 00:18:05:09
John Azoni
If nobody's crying, nobody's mad. Like there wasn't some shocking revelation that shocked the world and all the the reality bloggers are talking about it. You know, that's for me. It's a miss if that's not there. And that's what really keeps me and my wife watching is kind of like it's where's the next drama point going to be like, what's going to happen?
00:18:05:09 - 00:18:25:20
John Azoni
How is the story going to turn? Are these two people going to end up together or are they going to call it quits? So love is blind. If you don't know the premise, I can't believe we're going into this whole love is blind explanation here. But if you haven't seen Love is Blind. These people meet in these pods behind a wall.
00:18:25:20 - 00:18:47:17
John Azoni
It's like a speed dating. And then they start to form relationships with people who's they've only heard their voice. They don't know what the other person looks like. They fall in love, they get engaged. And when they get engaged, they still haven't seen each other. And then they do this big reveal where they come out and now they're already engaged and they see they see each other for the first time.
00:18:48:02 - 00:19:08:17
John Azoni
And that's where some of the drama comes out, because it's kind of like, oh, like, were they what? I thought they were going to be? Was it awkward? Was it not awkward? Are they who I would have normally been attracted to or whatever? And so that's like what we keep watching for, right? Like what's going to happen? What's this reveal going to be like?
00:19:08:23 - 00:19:29:06
John Azoni
And after the reveal, then they got to live together for a little bit. Always tons of drama as they are figuring out life together. And you know, someone leaves a towel on the floor and leaves the socks on the floor and whatever, you know, stuff like that. And then they got to make it to the altar where it's like, are they really going to say yes and get first you're married?
00:19:29:06 - 00:19:53:16
John Azoni
Okay, All of that explanation aside, that's a show that I binge and I don't binge that because it's just someone saying nice things, you know, someone on camera saying nice things about, I don't even know how you would productize that. But like, yeah, really, it's kind of apples to oranges to compare. Love is blind to a commercial, but like, that's kind of what we're talking about here.
00:19:53:16 - 00:20:12:13
John Azoni
Like you get sucked in and it completely addicted to a show, right? Like my wife and I, that's like how we bond. It's like, what are we watching tonight? We don't even have to, like, say it. We're just like, we just look each other and we just know we're like, we're doing this tonight. Yes, we're doing this tonight.
00:20:12:13 - 00:20:34:06
John Azoni
We're putting the kids to bed. We're going to sit down and we're just going to binge on this next episode and love every minute of it, whatever that show ends up being. Sometimes. Yellowstone was one of them in the last couple of years. But like, commercials don't do that. Like, who is kind of like, Oh, babe, you want to watch this flexible infomercial?
00:20:34:21 - 00:20:55:03
John Azoni
Tonight, We're going to put the kids to bed and watch this flexible infomercial. It's like it just doesn't because what you're connecting with is that narrative arc, right? You're connecting with the characters, you're empathizing with the journey that they're going on. You're wondering what's going to happen to them. There's things that are happening to them. You're wondering what those things are going to be, what's the outcome?
00:20:55:17 - 00:21:21:03
John Azoni
All those things, all of those things are wrapped up in this brain chemistry that's happening. When you're hearing a story, okay? And so that's very different than someone saying here at this grocery store, we value our customers and we and we really care about and we want them to find the right kind of beans and the right, you know, organic milk and whatever else.
00:21:21:03 - 00:21:48:06
John Azoni
And we take care of our employees and we do good in the community and blah, blah, blah. So two very different things. And that that's kind of where like my mind lives is like, man, I want to embrace both sides, but I also really want to preserve their very special things happening that cause somebody to continue to watch, content to look forward to, content to watch until the end of content.
00:21:48:08 - 00:22:17:05
John Azoni
When a story, a narrative arc is playing out versus something where it's like if it's just communicating information about a product or service and it's kind of like, okay, is the commercial, I'm out of here. You know, if someone's just scrolling through, that's not really going to hook them. The cool thing about stories in a marketing and branding context is that actual stories create deeper emotional bonds, deeper memory of your brand stories can imprint your brand in someone's psyche, and actual stories are addicting, right?
00:22:17:05 - 00:22:48:12
John Azoni
They make us want to keep listening. That's what I just was talking about with with Netflix or You Want to Know More, which is important in content creation. They make us stories, make us instinctively tune in. So the difference really matters. And I think it's important that when we're in marketing meetings and someone says we need to do a better job of telling our story, I tend to hear this a lot, you know, in meetings with schools that want to be doing marketing content creation more consistently and better, deeper emotional level that kind of thing.
00:22:49:06 - 00:23:13:14
John Azoni
They said, we just need to be doing a better job of telling our story. And to that we should say, What do you mean by that? If our school story was an actual story, what would that even look like? Would that be a compelling story to begin with? Or do you just mean that we need to be telling people about our school more frequently and in a more creative way, like getting in front of people more really seek to clarify what someone means when they say story.
00:23:13:21 - 00:23:46:02
John Azoni
That's what I want you to take away from this sort of rambling solo episode here is that I want you to, when you hear the word story, for that to be a fork in the road to clarify what that means, because we've introduced this this looser version of storytelling and we have a whole lot of marketers thinking they're telling stories and accessing this specific kind of brain science when they're not, and that matters.
00:23:46:02 - 00:24:10:08
John Azoni
And and to be doing that and putting storytelling campaigns into place that that aren't actual stories is just to me a disservice. And at the same time, you know, there can be both like you definitely need to be telling your why. It's not like you should only be telling stories. In fact, there's a lot of scenarios where you shouldn't be telling stories.
00:24:11:10 - 00:24:32:23
John Azoni
You know, like I said, I might have said this on the podcast before, but like you know, if my plumbing breaks in, I, you know, I've got water just pouring into my basement or whatever, and I go to find the nearest plumber. I don't want to hear a story about how your grandpa started the business. You know, like, that's not what I need.
00:24:32:23 - 00:25:15:02
John Azoni
I'm further down in the funnel. I'm ready to make a decision. I'm right at the bottom of the funnel. I'm like, What do you cost and how fast can you get here? You know? So you really need to be aware of who we're talking to. Where are they in that journey? Stories make better sense for top of funnel, just awareness, engaging people in a narrative that's going to sort of help them arrive at the brand or absorb the brand, but not maybe necessarily talking directly about the brand as they move a little bit down the funnel, maybe case studies, student alumni success stories, I think is another one that's sort of like maybe one step
00:25:15:02 - 00:25:37:21
John Azoni
down the funnel where where it's like someone's going to watch that. That's probably already considering your college and they're going to watch that and be really moved by the way that that was told. If that was told in a compelling way versus someone just on camera saying, I liked the school, it was a great experience and I suggest that you go here.
00:25:38:20 - 00:26:12:08
John Azoni
So there's a place for stories, for genuine narrative arcs, and then there's a place for creative messaging. Both of those have equal importance. I think we just need to not completely confuse them because it really matters in what where people are in that funnel and what we're trying to get them to do. If they're at the top of the funnel and they haven't really even considered our school yet and we're saying, here's all the reasons you should come here, they might not be ready for that information yet.
00:26:13:07 - 00:26:31:11
John Azoni
And you might think, Oh, I've heard someone say tell stories at this top of the funnel, you know, and if you're actually just kind of pitching to them in a creative way, that's not what they need. That's not going to move them to the next stage of the funnel, Right? So that's why it matters. It matters that we get that distinction.
00:26:31:11 - 00:27:04:07
John Azoni
Correct. So bottom line is not everything is a story just because it feels emotional or feels artful or feels creative or feels more meaningful than if you had just said point blank, come to our school just because it's presented in a way that's a little more meaningful, deeper than that doesn't make it a story. What makes it a story is a narrative arc, a plot where something is happening to people involved in this story and the person listening that you're imagining a story playing out in your mind and you're following this journey.
00:27:04:07 - 00:27:40:13
John Azoni
That's a story, a narrative arc. So that's all I hope this was. This was helpful. And I hope that when you start to question a little more our own use of the word story, what we mean by that and question what we think are actual stories in our current content lay out. And if we look and examine the videos, for instance, that are in our current content arsenal or whatever that we've called stories and they're not stories, you might want to actually think about getting some actual stories in there.
00:27:41:02 - 00:28:07:10
John Azoni
So that's my soapbox. Stepping off my soapbox now. Thank you for listening to this solo episode, some podcast hosts call it a Shorty episode. I like Shorty. I like saying Shorty. So we'll call this a Shorty episode and we will be back, uh, next week, I think with the next guest and exactly know who that is right now.
00:28:07:10 - 00:28:19:12
John Azoni
But we're figuring it out in between podcasts and between batches of guests right now. So, so we're figuring it out kind of week by week. And we'll be back soon. Thanks.
