#90 - Higher Ed Content Creation, But Make It Not Suck
w/ John Azoni
Podcast Host
🤔 Want to create deeper emotional impact with your institution’s storytelling and content creation efforts?
🎉Join the Newsletter!
Every week I send out a dose of insights and inspiration including:
💪Excerpts from that week's podcast episode
💪Case studies and best practices from other institutions
💪Tips for creating content that resonates and inspires action
(it’s free)
SHOW NOTES
In this episode, John Azoni discusses the importance of storytelling in higher education content creation. He emphasizes the need to move beyond basic information sharing to create compelling narratives that resonate emotionally with audiences. The conversation covers the science behind storytelling, the distinction between narrative and declarative storytelling, and the significance of human-first thinking in crafting engaging content. John also provides practical examples and insights on how to ask better questions to elicit more meaningful stories from individuals, ultimately aiming for content that is memorable and impactful.
Key Takeaways:
Not all content is storytelling: Simply sharing facts or descriptions isn’t storytelling — stories require emotional depth and human connection.
Show, don’t just tell: Strong content immerses the audience with specific moments, sensory details, and authentic emotion.
Declarative storytelling works too: It doesn’t need a full plot — personality, vulnerability, and a human-first approach can be just as impactful.
Better questions = better stories: The way you frame questions determines whether you get surface-level info or meaningful, memorable moments.
Quality beats quantity: One emotionally resonant piece of content is more valuable than ten forgettable ones.
Links:
Learn more about UNVEILD: https://unveild.tv
Subscribe to the Higher Ed Storytelling Newsletter: https://unveild.tv/newsletter
Watch podcast episodes on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@HigherEdStorytelling
————————
Transcript (done with AI so only about 90% accurate):
00;00;00;09 - 00;00;21;09
John Azoni
All right. Welcome to this episode. We're going to talk today about higher ed content creation, but let's make it not suck. So super glad to hear this episode can be kind of like a one on one level, sort of laying the foundations for how we shift our thinking from just communicating basic information to taking information and breathing life and emotion into it.
00;00;21;10 - 00;00;37;09
John Azoni
And so in the spirit of repurposing, I did a webinar last week on this topic. It was called Higher Ed Content Creation, but make it not suck. So I'm going to put my money where my mouth is because, you know, I talk a lot about repurposing and distribution and I thought, you know what, I should probably repurpose this into a podcast episode.
00;00;37;09 - 00;00;59;14
John Azoni
So so here I am. And you know, I'm repurposing my slides here, which were designed for the webinar. So if at some point I get tripped up because I'm like, Oh, that's not going to make sense to a podcast audience, you'll understand. So what we're going to talk about here is what is and isn't a story. You know, storytelling underpins virtually all content that is compelling.
00;00;59;14 - 00;01;23;15
John Azoni
But storytelling is a major buzzword in marketing and it causes some confusion. So we'll talk about that. We'll talk about what the differences between like storytelling and what's like a complete non story. We'll talk about why stories work. We'll put on sort of our science hats and talk about some evidence for the benefits of storytelling. Then one of my favorite topics, narrative versus declarative storytelling.
00;01;23;24 - 00;01;43;18
John Azoni
We're going to get into what that means, how we can divide storytelling into two parts and when to use each. And then we'll talk about how do you work with non stories and make them compelling? How do we go from bland information to this declarative storytelling level? And then lastly, you know, we'll talk about human first thinking in higher ed.
00;01;43;18 - 00;02;09;19
John Azoni
How do we apply this to our industry? We're going to look at some hypothetical stories and talk about what could make them more human, what could make them more compelling. So marketers and other artists and creators, I think, have sort of hijacked this word. Storytelling like story used to mean something concrete. It's a retelling of connected events. Nowadays, the lines are blurred, I mean, because, you know, we all know what a story is.
00;02;09;19 - 00;02;30;07
John Azoni
If you're at a party and someone's like, Oh my God, I got to tell you a great story. You kind of have an expectation of the framework that's about to be presented to you. So if someone does say that to you and then they were to be like, my favorite coffee is Fairtrade, organic coffee from Guatemala, you'd be like, okay, what's the story?
00;02;31;27 - 00;02;51;15
John Azoni
But a lot of times that's what we attribute to storytelling in marketing is like, Here's something about me or about our program. Here's some information that we think is compelling and then we like put nice song underneath it, and then we go, That's a story we told our story. And you know, that just wouldn't not fly in a social situation.
00;02;52;02 - 00;03;14;23
John Azoni
You know, a lot of people have storyteller in their LinkedIn bios and reach out to me or sent me a connection request on LinkedIn recently in her headline as a strategic communications pro and storyteller. So I don't look at that nowadays and think, you know, this person is like, you know, buddies with like Steven Spielberg or like J.K. Rowling or, you know, just got off of writing the next blockbuster screenplay.
00;03;15;02 - 00;03;30;06
John Azoni
I take that to mean, you know, it's sort of an emphasis word. It's sort of like I'm not just like I liken it to that Amy Poehler quote that's like, I'm not a regular mom. I'm a cool mom. You know, But like, I just watch mean Girls with my daughter a couple of weeks ago. So that's fresh in my mind.
00;03;30;06 - 00;04;01;05
John Azoni
But, you know, when we say that in a marketing contest, like I'm not just like a regular, like whatever or marketer, I'm like, you know, I see things in a deeper way, you know, deeper, more creative, more human way. And that's great. I think that's a great thing to have in your bio. And honestly, I'd like to see that when I see Storyteller, I go, Okay, this person thinks like me, but at the same time, I know if I were to ask this person, Oh, where some of your stories that you've told, they might be like, Oh yeah, I know, I'm not that kind of storyteller.
00;04;01;25 - 00;04;37;15
John Azoni
And then if you go on like, you know, I have, you know, spent most of my career in video production and, you know, have interfaced with a lot of photographers and videographers and all of them, you know, like you could go on pretty much any photographer, a videographer, companies website. And it's going to say something about telling your story, you know, whether you're a business, whether they're telling, you know, documentary is stories or photographers they're filming or if they're taking pictures of families, you know, just like families with their kids or like senior portraits, they're going to be like, we want to tell your story, which is fine.
00;04;37;15 - 00;05;05;20
John Azoni
But does kind of irk me a little bit with the photographers referencing that because like, it's like, okay, well, what's the story? You know, here's this family that went out into a field and smiled at the camera like, okay, that's not a story. But even if you kind of embrace this larger word of the meaning of the word storytelling, it's still not giving us any sort of like anything other than just it's like the equivalent of just saying, I like Guatemalan coffee.
00;05;05;20 - 00;05;24;02
John Azoni
It's sort of it's sort of like just here we smile at the camera. There's no story there. So what do people mean then, when they say storytelling or story? I think they typically mean this thing I created is more than what you see on the surface. It's not just a picture. It tells a story. I'm not just a marketer.
00;05;24;02 - 00;05;47;16
John Azoni
I consider myself to, you know, I like I pull out the soul of an organization and I like to communicate that soul in a unique or human way, someone that's maybe a painter might say, you know, this painting tells a story, even if it's just like an abstract painting, like splatters of paint. You know, what they really mean is like behind these splatters of paint is the scene that is playing out and you're invited to interpret that scene in your own way.
00;05;47;28 - 00;06;14;14
John Azoni
In the same way, You know, a lot of people, young people today use the word literally. It doesn't literally mean literally. It often more often is used as an emphasis word to like put a point on something. And I watched this YouTube video recently about the history of language. And the guy was saying that, like, you know, we often criticize in the next generation, the younger generation and the way that they talk because we say it's not proper.
00;06;14;14 - 00;06;46;19
John Azoni
But really language has evolved over millennia. And with every generation, new words come out or new takes on existing words come out and we get annoyed with that. But really, it's not bad. It's just new. And so that's what I think we have happening with storytelling here. We have a literal story category, and then we have this other category of storytelling that's like an emphasis or like you are making a statement or doing a thing, but we're putting this creative emphasis on it that invites us into something deeper.
00;06;46;19 - 00;07;05;19
John Azoni
So I think we need to embrace the full scope of the word story. And later, we're going to talk about where that line is between communicating Bland information and facts. And like, at what point do we cross over into being and we'll say like this is hitting on a storytelling note, but contrast that with, you know, say, your favorite Netflix show.
00;07;05;19 - 00;07;23;23
John Azoni
So narratives, narratives are the reason we get bonded to our favorite shows. So my wife and I, we always have a show that we look forward to watching together. We're currently between shows right now. We're sort of waiting on shrinking Season three to come out and then season two of Nobody Wants This with Kristen Bell. And I forget the other guy's name.
00;07;24;06 - 00;07;48;27
John Azoni
He was on The O.C., though. But fun fact, Kristen Bell used to be a vocalist at the church across the street from my house. True story. She's from southeast Michigan. But when we were in our Yellowstone phase of life, I bought a $13 cowboy hat off of Amazon, and I would wear that while watching the show. My wife and I would we would only talk to each other in Southern accents while the show was going on.
00;07;49;05 - 00;08;09;16
John Azoni
And that's what it means to create an emotional bond like emotional doesn't need to mean like sappy. It's just that we feel connected to the characters, to the culture of the show. We're hooked on what's going to happen next, and that bond is affecting our actions. And if you contrast that, like every state has their famous lawyers, right?
00;08;09;17 - 00;08;29;09
John Azoni
So in Michigan, in well, in southeast Michigan, we have Sam Bernstein. So one 800 call Sam, this guy has been around my whole life and everyone can recall as kids, you know, you pick up the phone, you prank call Sam, and he's a slip and fall lawyer. So you call them up and be like, I'm falling and I can't, you know, get getting up.
00;08;29;19 - 00;08;51;11
John Azoni
And then you giggle with your friends and stuff like that. But, you know, he's been around. He's just such a figure in the Detroit area. But you won't catch us, you know, at the dinner table where be like, man I hope some Sam Bernstein commercials come on later like he's got these claims that they make they're like Michigan's first family of law and then it's like a no fee guarantee like you don't pay until you they win the case for you.
00;08;51;24 - 00;09;16;09
John Azoni
But like, none of that is making us go out of our way to consume that content because information just does not have the same effect as narratives. So let's talk about a little bit of science. So the key ingredient at work in storytelling is transportation. So this phenomenon where we are immersed in a story and we lose our sense of space and time and we're imagining these events playing out in our minds.
00;09;16;27 - 00;09;37;12
John Azoni
So there was a study that was done where participants read a vivid, emotionally charged story. It was titled Murder at the Mall. It was about a young girl who was murdered by a psychiatric patient in a shopping mall. So some some participants told it was we're told it was true, some were told it was fictional. And then they measured how transported the participants were into the narrative.
00;09;37;12 - 00;10;10;12
John Azoni
They developed the scale to figure out like how much did they really sink in to the story. And they found that the further someone was transported into the story, the more likely they were to adopt the beliefs and the attitudes consistent with the story, regardless if they were told it was true or not. So they'd be more likely to believe that psychiatric patients are dangerous or that they should have harsher strictures placed on them, for instance, or that you could just go out in public one day and never come back, or that malls are a dangerous place or something like that, you know?
00;10;10;27 - 00;10;35;07
John Azoni
And then there was another study where participants were told about a charity called Save the Children and presented with either a statistical appeal. So, for example, like millions are starving in Africa or they were presented with a personal story about a seven year old Malian girl named Rokia, who was suffering from hunger. And then they were given the opportunity to donate real money to the charity.
00;10;35;07 - 00;11;00;22
John Azoni
After reading the information, the people who heard Rocha's story donated more than twice as much than the people that got the statistical information. So a lot of Markham folks would look at this statistical appeal as storytelling. They go, Well, we're telling the story of the problem. We're telling the story of the organization. But the problem is you're just telling us information and you're not connecting that to any human lives, any specific human experience.
00;11;01;04 - 00;11;35;20
John Azoni
You're not showing us how that's being lived out. You're not taking us into a deeper human experience. There's no one character that we can connect to and root for or empathize with. So it's just the perfect like show versus tell example. So when we think we're tapping into the powerful, you know, benefits of storytelling, but we're just communicating lifeless information and we think we're checking the storytelling box, we're really missing out on the brain science or we're missing out on all the effectiveness for how our brains as humans were wired to connect with information and to store information in our minds.
00;11;36;02 - 00;12;02;18
John Azoni
And all the while, we think that we are doing the storytelling thing. And that's a big miss in my mind. And so what we need to really understand where the line is with when does something become a memorable piece of content that can be put in that storytelling category? There's another study that was done where participants read action words, so they read things like kick, pick, lick while their brain activity was being measured through MRI.
00;12;02;22 - 00;12;32;06
John Azoni
This is super fascinating to me. They found that reading the words triggered activity in the parts of the brain associated with those actions. So reading the word kick activated the leg region, pick activated the hand region lick activated the face or the mouth region responsible for making those parts of your body move. So the study just supports this idea that that immersive storytelling doesn't just engage our imagination, it simulates real world experience in the brain.
00;12;32;06 - 00;12;56;06
John Azoni
So this is a key mechanism behind narrative transportation, you know, empathy and even behavior changes like when you in stories set us up to include sensory details and set us up to sort of like put ourselves in the position of the main characters of the story. And when you're doing that, when that's happening, your brain is actually participating as if you were the main character.
00;12;56;25 - 00;13;19;09
John Azoni
So I mean, we talk about like engaging in content. I mean, like how do you get more engaged than that? Literal storytelling isn't necessarily the gold standard, so it's not like if you're not telling a literal story, your content is bad. And this is the part of the podcast where the webinar doesn't necessarily translate because it's not very practical to play a video.
00;13;19;21 - 00;13;39;26
John Azoni
So I'm just going to explain it and I'm going to link to the video in the show notes. But if you follow me on LinkedIn, you've probably seen me post this video at least once. I think I posted it three or four times, you know, talking about different things. And I also did a episode a few episodes ago with Warren Cook, who is the director of this piece for Texas A&M, and it's called Where You Belong.
00;13;39;27 - 00;14;13;13
John Azoni
So this production company called Make Something Beautiful, led by Warren Cook, they were contracted to do a major campaign, I mean, like total like, I don't know, something like 20 or 30 different, you know, student stories over the course of several months. And it resulted in this one sort of mash up video of like all these like soundbites from these different stories and stuff, and then just kind of like altogether told this cool sort of quote unquote story about the culture at Texas A&M and how you just all different kinds of people, different kind of academic experiences.
00;14;13;19 - 00;14;30;27
John Azoni
And the piece just has so much personality. It's just, you know, one minute you're just watching a girl talk and she's like, I like to hot glue gun things, two things, and then it goes to the next person. And she's like, I really like bugs. And then another person is like, I'm working with sharks, but I want to work with bigger sharks, you know?
00;14;30;27 - 00;14;51;22
John Azoni
And it's just like these little moments of humanity. And you can see where you see these students just coming to life and lighting up in excitement over what they're learning or what they're involved in. There's a whole scene where it's like four ladies dressed in cosplay. I mean, forecasts play like anime character outfits, and then one girl's like, I'm actually thinking I'm planning on going to law school.
00;14;52;12 - 00;15;12;21
John Azoni
So it's just it's just cool. I mean, like, there's so many walks of life represented in this video, and every time I post this on LinkedIn, the comment section goes nuts. Like people are just like, This is the best video in higher ed I've ever seen. It's just it's so cool. It's so well done and has so much personality, has this like Wes Anderson kind of directorial style.
00;15;13;03 - 00;15;30;28
John Azoni
But the thing about it is if you watch it, it's not a story, it's not a literal story. Nothing happens in the video. There's zero plot. It's just a mashup of statements from different students. But they all together sort of tell the story of what Texas A&M is about. And what's interesting about this video is how it feels.
00;15;30;28 - 00;15;53;08
John Azoni
It just it feels very different. It feels real. It has personality. It's very human. It has this way of like bringing you into each person's world. So, you know, it has that effect of transporting you even without there being a single narrative. And so this is what I refer to as declarative storytelling. So it's technically information, but in like a show versus tell format.
00;15;53;22 - 00;16;13;28
John Azoni
So like a complete non story of this version, let's just assume you've watched the video at this point and a complete non story version of this video would be like you can belong at Texas A&M. We have clubs and we have fun events and, you know, classes for all kinds of interests and blah, blah, blah. And and maybe you even show some B-roll with that.
00;16;14;12 - 00;16;38;12
John Azoni
But it's still very like, tell versus show. It's just point blank information. It doesn't have that same transportive effect. So whether it's a narrative or it's a declarative story, what we're looking for is, is personality. We're looking for novelty, We're looking for the ability to sink in to the content and even some level of vulnerable city. We're looking for humanity we're looking for.
00;16;38;12 - 00;17;00;05
John Azoni
It's just stuff that allows us to empathize and connect with other humans. In doing so, that kind of crosses that threshold into into that storytelling like declarative storytelling category. And it's like as you're watching it, do you feel something? Do you feel something? Is it more than just like you're watching an infomercial? Do you feel excited? Do you feel inspired?
00;17;00;05 - 00;17;26;03
John Azoni
Do you feel like you can empathize or relate with people in the video? It's kind of a blurry line between what's just bland information and and when you sort of cross over this threshold into either declared or well, it's pretty clear when you cross into narrative storytelling because you'll be actually telling a series of connected events. But when you cross into that, it's still a little bit of a gray line When you cross into that declarative storytelling category.
00;17;26;03 - 00;17;56;01
John Azoni
But it's just this general vibe of like the human experience, vulnerability, the ability to feel something. When you watch it, you empathize with people when you watch it. And I think overall it has the ability to transport you to hold your attention because you want to know like you want to keep watching, to see like what's going to happen or like what more you can learn about this culture or whatever it has that transportive effects that just bland information.
00;17;56;01 - 00;18;24;20
John Azoni
Just watching a law commercial doesn't have, like when someone's just like, oh, the, you know, Michigan's first family of law and experience no fee guarantee. There's no imagery going on in your head, like you're not envisioning anything that's connecting you in a visual way to that message. It's just bland information and you can put any kind of song underneath that can show any sort of be your all of, you know, clients and lawyers shaking hands or whatever.
00;18;24;20 - 00;18;50;06
John Azoni
And you're still not going to be transported into any sort of other space in your head where you're kind of losing your sense of space and time and and really sinking into this piece of content. So what we're trying to do when we're either writing a story or making a video for marketing purposes in higher ed, the goal is moving from feature first to human first.
00;18;50;20 - 00;19;15;25
John Azoni
So I want to in this example, in this part of the episode, invite you into a couple of examples. So there's two different stories. One is Maya's story and the other is Logan. My boy. Logan Okay, so for Maya and Logan, we have two different versions of their story. So I'm going to read version one and then version two, and then I think you're going to see pretty clearly what the contrast is.
00;19;16;09 - 00;19;45;18
John Azoni
So let's jump in. These are just hypothetical stories. So the first story is, is Maya and the headline is building Skills and Early Childhood Education. Maya Thompson, a senior majoring in early childhood education at State University, recently completed her practicum at the Sue Child Development Laboratory School. Throughout the semester, she planned daily activities for children, helps manage classroom routines and participated in parent teacher communication.
00;19;46;02 - 00;20;08;20
John Azoni
Quote I learned how to apply child development theories in a real classroom setting, unquote, Thompson said. It was a valuable experience that prepared me for student teaching. Thompson chose early childhood education because she wants to help young children learn and grow. After graduation, she plans to become a preschool teacher and eventually pursue a master's degree in curriculum development.
00;20;09;08 - 00;20;36;20
John Azoni
Quote I'm excited to take the next step and make a difference in children's lives, she said. Okay, pretty basic run of the mill article there. Let's look at version two. The title of this one is called My A Thompson and the Magic of the China Years. For Maya, the classroom isn't just a career, it's a calling. At 7:52 a.m., Maya Thompson was on her knees with a bottle of glue and a glitter explosion on her hands.
00;20;36;21 - 00;21;01;15
John Azoni
A student had asked to make a spaceship, and somehow that turned into sequins, googly eyes and a story about flying to Jupiter to rescue grandma. Quote, I could have cried from how weirdly beautiful that was. My left like this tiny brain just made a whole world and I got to be there for it. Maya, a senior in early childhood education at State University, spent her practicum in the Sue Child Development Lab School.
00;21;01;25 - 00;21;21;18
John Azoni
It wasn't just finger painting and snack breaks. It was about patients listening and learning how children communicate long before they find the right words. Quote One kid wouldn't speak for the first two weeks, she said. Then one day she handed me a drawing. It was us holding hands. I'll never forget that she didn't go into education for the lesson plans.
00;21;21;18 - 00;21;44;21
John Azoni
She went in because she believes early childhood is where the most important stuff happens, the stuff that shapes who we become. This work isn't small, Maya said. It's everything. So what do we have? Version One of my story is, I mean, hopefully it's obvious. Very bland, very of news oriented. Like, here's Maya, here's what she did, here's why it's great.
00;21;45;08 - 00;22;19;04
John Azoni
The end. And here's a little quote from her. I'm excited to take the next step and make a difference in children's lives. Just a very generic statement. Everything about this is just generic, forgettable. But as soon as you transition over to version two, even a title is different. Maya Thompson In the Magic of the Tiny Years, we're already conjuring up imagery and then, you know, right off the bat, you know, we're building this visual in our mind of being on our knees with a bottle of glue and glitter explosion and, you know, making things with googly eyes in a spaceship and telling stories about rescuing grandma.
00;22;19;04 - 00;22;40;18
John Azoni
And, you know, it's just this weirdly beautiful moment, she said. So now we're being taken into a moment where something happens that's storytelling, you know, that's narrative storytelling that has more of a narrative quality to it than the first one. And then we get some information. So she's a senior in early childhood education, yadda, yadda. Spent her practicum, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00;22;41;03 - 00;22;59;07
John Azoni
But, you know, and then we get this other sort of narrative thing, like one kid wouldn't speak for two weeks. And then one day she handed me a drawing and it was us holding hands. So it's sort of like she's making an impact without saying I'm making an impact. You know, She told us a little mini story of how that impact is being lived out in a child's life.
00;22;59;07 - 00;23;26;29
John Azoni
So without beating a dead horse here, two different ways of writing the same story. Let's go on to Logan. So Logan, the version one Building a career with Sustainable packaging. Senior Logan Myers is using recyclable materials to launch his engineering career. Logan Myers, a senior in industrial engineering, recently wrapped up a summer internship at Eco Pack, a sustainable packaging company in Des Moines, Iowa.
00;23;27;15 - 00;23;53;02
John Azoni
There, he worked with Plant engineers to optimize the efficiency of cardboard folding equipment. Quote, Learning how to improve packaging systems was a great way to get hands on experience in an area that has real world environmental impact, Myers said. During his time at Eco Park, Myers worked on updating machine collaboration logs, running tests on recycled cardboard, prototype and compiling data into weekly reports for the operations manager.
00;23;53;16 - 00;24;14;26
John Azoni
He said the experience helped him build both technical and professional skills that would be valuable in his future career. Myers says he chose industrial engineering because he enjoys improving systems and making things work better. After graduation, he plans to pursue a role in operations at a company focused on sustainability. Quote I'm grateful for the opportunity and mentorship I received, Myers said.
00;24;15;11 - 00;24;40;02
John Azoni
I feel more confident in what I want to do after college. Okay. Again, pretty straightforward. Nothing crazy there. Pretty much told it as it is now. Version to the title is it was just a cardboard box until it wasn't how one student found his purpose inside a packaging plant. It starts off by saying by the third week of his summer internship, Logan Myers had learned something surprising.
00;24;40;03 - 00;25;04;18
John Azoni
He could spend hours watching cardboard fold and never get bored. There's something kind of beautiful about it, he said, laughing, like this dumb little flap that folds at the wrong time that could jam the whole line. But if you tweak the timing by a half second, suddenly everything flows. Logan, a senior studying industrial engineering, spent his summer at Eco Park, a sustainable packaging company in Des Moines, Iowa.
00;25;04;19 - 00;25;28;11
John Azoni
He didn't just shadow meetings or fetch coffee. He helped rework parts of the folding process for one of the company's busiest lines, using recycled materials that were notoriously hard to keep in shape. Quote I was thrown into it, he said. And I loved that it wasn't theoretical anymore. It was messy and real. And the stakes were there. Logan grew up rearranging his room every few months, not for decoration, but for efficiency.
00;25;28;16 - 00;25;53;19
John Azoni
How can you fit more? Make it feel better, Make it work. That instinct, he realized, was engineering. Now he's not just thinking about his next internship. He's thinking bigger. Quote I want to solve problems that touch the physical world. And if that happens to be with recycled cardboard. Awesome. There's so much meaning in the small stuff. So what do we notice here again, in version two specific human moments.
00;25;54;03 - 00;26;14;19
John Azoni
There's something beautiful about folding cardboard. This dumb little flap that folds at the wrong time could jam the whole line. And, you know, it makes me think like it makes me think of. I used to work at Little Caesars. I don't know if you guys have Little Caesars in other parts of the country. Detroit invented the Little Caesars, though, and so I used to work at Little Seeds and they used to.
00;26;15;04 - 00;26;37;24
John Azoni
They do this hot and ready things. You walk in, grab a hot pepperoni pizza and walk out. When they started, it was five bucks for a large hot and ready pizza, whatever. So when I was in high school, I worked at Little Caesars. They had just launched the hot and ready situation and I was the guy that, like, held the sign outside at the corner and like, was flagging the cars in.
00;26;37;25 - 00;26;59;07
John Azoni
It was terrible. It was so hot, it so boring. The time just crawled by anyways. But what I did like about that job was folding pizza boxes. There's something really satisfying about learning a rhythm where you can just like in, like in one motion, kind of like, fold this pizza box set aside, do the next one set aside to the next one.
00;26;59;22 - 00;27;22;16
John Azoni
So, I mean, even in this context, like that makes me think something. I'm empathizing with him. I'm relating with Logan and how, you know, he's done little things can be so either satisfying or, in his case, like something very small could like, jam the whole line. You know, but tweaking it, like you're just tweaking these little things about a cardboard box and now everything flows and now it's satisfying again.
00;27;23;02 - 00;27;42;10
John Azoni
And also, just like the idea of, like rearranging his room, you know, like, I used to love rearranging my room when I was a kid. It felt like a whole new room. You know, again, we're taking us into specific moments of mini stories like little narrative moments that make us conjure up an image in our minds that we can relate to and empathize with.
00;27;42;11 - 00;28;11;13
John Azoni
That is getting us into content creation that doesn't suck, that we're engaging the brain, we're engaging in nostalgia, memories, relatability, empathy, all that stuff. That's where I think that line is. And I think if you look at these examples side by side, one is not necessarily a non-story. Like I wouldn't say like Logan's like version of one of Logan's story is like completely dry, boring, lifeless, could not ever be considered in the storytelling category.
00;28;11;13 - 00;28;29;01
John Azoni
I think it's more just like news. The news journalism kind of style. But version two now has life to it, has humanity to it, it has emotion to it. It makes you want to keep reading because you're kind of like, Yeah, I get that. I totally get what he's saying there because I do that too. Or I think that way too.
00;28;29;19 - 00;28;49;12
John Azoni
And it has these moments of just like the human experience. So higher ed content lives or dies by the questions you ask in the first place. So there are probably a set of questions that likely resulted in the boring versions of those stories and a set of questions that allowed them to come alive and share personal anecdotes in the second versions.
00;28;50;00 - 00;29;05;15
John Azoni
So, you know, for instance, what did you do during your internship? Like you just writing an article about a student and they had an internship and you asked him, what do you do during your internship? What are they going to say? They're trying to say, like, I did this, I did that in school and I got to learn this and blah, blah, blah.
00;29;06;02 - 00;29;29;23
John Azoni
But if you ask them, can you tell me about a moment during your internship where something clicked for you? Now you're asking them to help us invite us into your world, into your inner mind, what you were thinking, what you were feeling, what clicked, what wasn't working, then started working. Now you're setting them up to give personal anecdotes that are going to lead to content that doesn't suck.
00;29;30;11 - 00;29;49;21
John Azoni
Another question Why do you want to teach young kids? Well, what would they say? What would anyone say to that? Well, I just love working with young kids. I love to see how their minds work and just you know, and I like to have an influence on next generation and blah, blah, blah. A better way to ask that would be what's one thing a child did or said that reminded you why this work matters to you?
00;29;49;22 - 00;30;11;04
John Azoni
Now all of a sudden you were talking about a drawing. You know, we're talking about, you know, this kid wouldn't talk the whole time. And then all of a sudden she hands me a drawing and I was holding hands. And I mean that perfectly illustrates why this work matters, you know, without saying this work matters because this, this and this, it's like, here, let me show you why this work matters.
00;30;11;04 - 00;30;37;16
John Azoni
It's show versus tell. So the questions that you ask, the way that you frame the conversation that's going to help you arrive at the content, the content is going to live or die by that you as the content creator, need to frame the questions, frame the situation for others in a way that gets them to tell you more human stuff rather than just feature first stuff.
00;30;38;02 - 00;30;54;27
John Azoni
We're trying to move from feature focused to human focused feature first to human first, not just what was great about the program. What was great about the program was small class sizes, great professors, yadda yadda. Like, what would anyone say to that? They would mostly just say, What was great about the program? Oh, it was. It was great.
00;30;54;27 - 00;31;12;07
John Azoni
The professors were so engaged and they love what they do and they're passionate. And this class sizes were small and got access to cool labs and technology. But if you ask them, like, tell me about a moment or something clicked for you, or like, tell me about a moment where you just felt like this program is like nothing I've ever experienced.
00;31;12;24 - 00;31;29;06
John Azoni
Now they might even tell you about a great professor, but they're pregnant. Tell you in a way that's like this happened. Or this person sat me down and gave me this piece of advice or, you know, went out of their way to show me this or something. And that's when it all clicked for me, whatever the case may be.
00;31;29;09 - 00;31;54;27
John Azoni
But how you frame those questions is imperative. So that's what I got. So we got, you know, not everything is a story. Info does not equal narrative. If it doesn't create emotional investment, it's probably not storytelling stories stick because of how they make us feel, you know, emotion, empathy and sensory detail, vulnerability, overcoming challenges. All of those things help the brain remember.
00;31;55;06 - 00;32;21;01
John Azoni
And there's a really good book called Stories That Stick. I've mentioned it on this podcast before by Kindra Hall and Dray Hall, H.A. Super great book. If you want to just get a really, really great primer on storytelling in a marketing context, absolutely. Get that book and then show versus tell. So telling is informative, but showing is transformative.
00;32;21;13 - 00;32;41;06
John Azoni
She's showing helps us transport into the story, helps our brain remember and then starting Human first, not feature first. So focus on people, not programs. Show your programs how your programs are being lived out in a human's life and then ask better questions. The quality of your story is going to live or die. In the interview, so go deeper.
00;32;41;06 - 00;33;00;06
John Azoni
Ask better questions that are going to allow for more human answers. And then, you know, the fact is that you don't need more content. You know, you just need better content. Like one emotionally resonant story or emotionally resonant piece of content can do more than ten forgettable articles. What good are ten articles that no one's going to remember?
00;33;00;22 - 00;33;18;28
John Azoni
When you can make one article that might have a shred of sticking power in someone's brain. So that's what I got for you. Thanks for hanging out with me on this episode of the Higher Ed Storytelling University podcast and I will catch you next time. See?
