#72 - Conservative, Liberal, or Moderate: Positioning Your College’s Video Content in a Polarized World
w/ Jarrett Smith
Senior Vice President & Partner, Echo Delta
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SHOW NOTES
My guest today is Jarrett Smith, Senior Vice President of Strategy at Echo Delta, an education marketing agency solving higher ed's most pressing marketing problems with strategies designed for success.
In this episode, Jarrett discusses Echo Delta's recent report on how politics affect students' college decisions and what that means for higher ed marketing and content creation. He shares insights on the extent to which state and campus politics influence student choice, students' key concerns, and how institutions can address these issues in their marketing efforts.
Key Takeaways:
Politics is a significant factor for most students in their college decision, accounting for about 20% of the decision on average
64% of students say state politics differing from their views would be a factor, while 74% say campus politics would be a factor
Top student concerns include personal safety, fear of not belonging, and concerns about harassment
Left-leaning students were more likely to cite a wide range of concerns compared to moderate or conservative students
Texas, Florida, and Alabama were the states of most concern, even among some moderate and conservative students
Strategies and Examples Discussed:
Hillsdale College's conservative positioning and high-quality content production
Penn State's "Social 119" YouTube channel featuring lectures on controversial topics
Connect With Jarrett:
Website: echodelta.co
Connect With John:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnazoni
Website: https://unveild.tv
Newsletter: https://unveild.tv/newsletter
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Transcript (done with AI so only about 90% accurate):
00:00:00:04 - 00:00:33:00
John Azoni
My guest today is Gerrit Smith. Gerrit is the senior vice president of strategy at Echo Delta, an education marketing agency solving higher Ed's most pressing marketing problems with strategies designed for success. And today, we're talking about if and how politics affect a student's decision. You know, where to go to school, what that means for content creation efforts. I think your guest will probably talk more about how if it were if if it does and you're just like, no, it doesn't really, then that would be like a very short episode.
00:00:34:16 - 00:00:34:22
Jarrett Smith
All right.
00:00:35:00 - 00:00:35:08
John Azoni
Thank you.
00:00:36:16 - 00:00:39:06
Jarrett Smith
Yeah. Good show. Good talk. Good talk. Yeah.
00:00:39:23 - 00:00:42:21
John Azoni
All right. Well, Gerrit, welcome to the show. Thanks for being here.
00:00:43:15 - 00:00:48:20
Jarrett Smith
Hey, thanks, John. A big fan of your podcast, and it's a lot of fun to be here. Looking forward to the conversation.
00:00:49:14 - 00:01:16:20
John Azoni
Absolutely. So you were one of my earlier higher ed connections from a few years ago. Just for context, for people listening, you know, for people that know the podcast, you've heard my spiel about our storytelling subscriptions and the first university or college that I worked with. They were ready to buy into this and they were like, You got to get past Echo Delta first.
00:01:17:22 - 00:01:29:08
John Azoni
She's like, If they prove you, then then, then, then you're good. And then I think that's where we met was on a and a meeting with your whole team. And then that was our first subscription client. So.
00:01:30:00 - 00:01:34:23
Jarrett Smith
So as I recall, that must have gone decently well because I'm on the podcast. So I think.
00:01:34:23 - 00:01:36:19
Jarrett Smith
We're yeah.
00:01:36:19 - 00:01:40:09
John Azoni
Unless I have a whole smear campaign here.
00:01:40:13 - 00:01:43:20
Jarrett Smith
Here's a takedown episode.
00:01:44:02 - 00:01:44:11
Jarrett Smith
Yeah.
00:01:46:04 - 00:01:50:14
John Azoni
But cool. So. So tell me something people would be surprised to know about you.
00:01:51:07 - 00:02:16:05
Jarrett Smith
Oh, man. Okay, so I'm going to be, like, super vulnerable here. I'm just going to embrace my inner Brené Brown and tell you something that not a lot of people know about me. So I am probably the only person who has presented at Amma Higher Ed, who is also a card carrying member of the Florida Taxidermy Association. So really, I am not a practicing taxidermist.
00:02:16:05 - 00:02:44:12
Jarrett Smith
Just for the record, you can chalk this one up to hobbies that your kids take up that you never thought your kids would take up. So we did. Yes. In pursuit of that very unique interest for one of my boys, we attended the Florida Taxidermy Association annual conference, which was actually super entertaining, incredibly interesting, and as part of that became formal members.
00:02:44:12 - 00:02:45:03
Jarrett Smith
So here we are.
00:02:45:18 - 00:02:47:23
John Azoni
So what kind of animals do you Taxidermy.
00:02:48:19 - 00:03:16:08
Jarrett Smith
Well, okay, So again, I don't I don't personally partake in the the taxidermy ization of animals. But no, at this conference they had all sorts of animals, you know, exotic, you know, big game snakes and reptiles and all sorts of we live in Florida, so all sorts of Florida wildlife hogs and turkeys and deer and bobcats and all sorts of stuff.
00:03:16:08 - 00:03:42:04
Jarrett Smith
And so my my youngest son has a an abiding interest from very young age and all things related to animals and reptiles and and so, yeah, so this was something he was like, I seen this on YouTube and I think it would be really cool. Can we give it a shot? So. So at this point, I may or may not have a number of frozen animals in my garage freezer right now.
00:03:42:04 - 00:03:46:10
John Azoni
Well, let's I'm glad they're animals and not another species.
00:03:46:12 - 00:03:52:01
Jarrett Smith
I know. And I just I want to reassure everybody. He is, like, very well-adjusted, is a very sweet and a friendly kid.
00:03:53:07 - 00:03:53:19
Jarrett Smith
That's how it.
00:03:53:19 - 00:03:56:03
John Azoni
Starts. They cut an animal heads off, you know?
00:03:57:05 - 00:04:00:01
Jarrett Smith
Yeah. Yeah. So I think. I think we're in the clear.
00:04:00:01 - 00:04:01:10
Jarrett Smith
Fingers crossed we'll find out. Yeah.
00:04:01:20 - 00:04:32:21
John Azoni
So the one of the last times I was in Florida, I was celebrating my my best friend's 40th birthday party or 40th birthday, we went on like a deep sea fishing charter, and we caught a shark and and and like the it was clear that the guides or whatever had a business relationship with the taxidermy people that are responsible for like stuffing the or preserving the shark or whatever, because they were selling this thing hard.
00:04:32:22 - 00:04:40:16
John Azoni
And they were. And I you could kind of sense that this was a whole act like like, oh, my gosh, you caught a shark like no one ever catches.
00:04:40:17 - 00:04:44:12
Jarrett Smith
That's incredible. Oh, my gosh. This is I can't believe this.
00:04:44:18 - 00:05:04:10
John Azoni
And then they're like, Oh, we got to tag this. This is a no brainer. They kept saying, this is a no brainer. No brainer. It's like $3,000 to. Yeah, you wouldn't like get the actual shark like they do a replica of it, but they have to, like, tag it. But there are pushing hard to like. So we were just like we were so amped we didn't but we didn't do the, the taxidermy thing.
00:05:04:10 - 00:05:12:16
John Azoni
But we were like, holy crap, we can't shot. And then we looked at reviews later after when we were like out to lunch and like other people were like, we caught a shark.
00:05:13:00 - 00:05:13:21
Jarrett Smith
We got a shark.
00:05:14:23 - 00:05:19:10
John Azoni
That's awesome. They probably just sort of like released the shark. You know, from under. Yeah.
00:05:20:09 - 00:05:25:20
Jarrett Smith
Yeah, yeah. It's part of our Florida lifestyle. We do a lot of fishing, and I can assure you, we get sharks, like, all the time.
00:05:26:03 - 00:05:30:00
Jarrett Smith
It's great. We got another shark, like. All right.
00:05:30:07 - 00:05:58:11
John Azoni
Well, now I'm convinced that we were just part of the act, you know? But it was a fun time. We did. I don't have a taxidermied shark, though, so. Like this bucket list. Yeah, but we're here to talk about politics. So. Well, first, give us a primer on what Echo Delta is about. Just I know a lot of people are that listen to this podcast are probably aware of you guys but for people who aren't.
00:05:58:22 - 00:06:23:09
Jarrett Smith
Yeah yeah sure happy to to chat about that briefly. So Echo Delta is an enrollment marketing agency for higher education. You know, I think what makes us maybe a little bit different than other firms is that we have a lot of the capabilities that you might expect from a much larger firm, but we sort of package it up in a more boutique, personalized, small team format.
00:06:23:21 - 00:06:46:00
Jarrett Smith
So I think it's a really good fit for for clients that really value like a close collaborative agency partner that is really invested in, in their school. So we have all the creative services you would expect from a sort of quote unquote typical agency. So brand and market research, media buying, recruitment campaigns, email content, web design, that sort of stuff.
00:06:46:00 - 00:07:15:07
Jarrett Smith
But we also combine that with some pretty high level enrollment consulting. So we've got a number of things that we bring to bear there that I think are interesting. We have an amazing campus visit consulting practice headed up by Jeff Clay, who's incredible. Scott Rhodes heads up our financial aid, leveraging name buys and strategic enrollment planning. And just this past year, we started offering sales training workshops for admissions counselors, and that's proven to be really popular.
00:07:15:07 - 00:07:24:23
Jarrett Smith
So I think it's really this combination of capabilities is a bit unusual. And again, kind of bringing that together and more of that small agency kind of format.
00:07:25:18 - 00:07:30:02
John Azoni
Cool. And you have a podcast, Higher Ed Marketing Lab. Oh, yeah. Tell us about that.
00:07:30:20 - 00:07:55:06
Jarrett Smith
Well, this is sort of my irregular podcast, John. I hand it to you. You're so consistent. I'm like doing good to squeak out a podcast once a month. But, but it's a lot of fun and I learn a lot on that. So we like you interview really smart folks from around higher ed, but also make a point to reach outside of higher ed and just learn what we can from very smart, savvy individuals.
00:07:55:23 - 00:08:03:22
Jarrett Smith
Usually in the world of marketing or research or business strategy or something like that, and then try and see what we can learn, that we can apply for higher education clients.
00:08:03:22 - 00:08:09:03
John Azoni
Cool. Good deal. Well, to make you feel better, I did go down to every other week replacing an episode.
00:08:09:03 - 00:08:10:18
Jarrett Smith
I was I was good. Okay?
00:08:11:05 - 00:08:25:16
John Azoni
I was getting a little bogged down. It kept sneaking up on me where I'm like, Crap, I don't have an episode lined up. And then I have like, hustle up and like, write a solo episode. But that takes me a while because I can't just riff like I have to just like I have to write about, you know?
00:08:26:02 - 00:08:32:23
John Azoni
So that was like, Oh, man, loosen up the reins a little bit and go to every other week. And now it's been, now it's been great. And I think this is the sweet spot.
00:08:33:22 - 00:08:35:12
Jarrett Smith
Yeah, that's about right, though.
00:08:36:18 - 00:08:44:01
Jarrett Smith
It would be. But I think I mean I aspire to every other week that would be fantastic. It's it's a lot there. Manzo respect.
00:08:44:12 - 00:08:44:20
Jarrett Smith
Yeah.
00:08:46:13 - 00:09:02:15
John Azoni
You guys did a report on politics and people's, you know, prospective students decision to go to school based on a state's politics. Tell us about that. Tell us about the report and why did you pursue this topic?
00:09:03:20 - 00:09:36:19
Jarrett Smith
Sure. So I think it was probably around 2020 to 2023. We started hearing from a lot of our clients and admissions officers that they had the feeling that oftentimes state politics, maybe campus politics, are starting to play more of a role. And students decision about whether or not to attend their college. And, you know, and I think in a lot of cases, it was sort of a hunch or maybe a few anecdotes or kind of conversations maybe an admissions counselor had had with some students that they were kind of prompting that.
00:09:36:19 - 00:10:01:22
Jarrett Smith
But we had one client located in the southeast to said, Hey, guys, I can point to no less than 50 students who have explicitly said your state's politics are the main thing that's preventing me from going to your school. I love your school, but I can't stomach your state state's politics. So at that point we said, Gosh, this is like, this is a thing, there's something to it.
00:10:02:05 - 00:10:18:21
Jarrett Smith
And we just want to see if we can understand it better. And there's been a little bit of research done in this area, but not much. So we thought maybe, you know, with an upcoming election cycle, that's probably going to become more important, not less important. Let's dive in and see what we can learn. So we partnered up with a longtime research partner of ours.
00:10:18:21 - 00:10:47:19
Jarrett Smith
A market research grant drew their founder and lead researcher There is amazing and we've worked on a number of client projects. So we said, Hey, you know, let's partner up, let's coauthor a report. So we worked with ATV to develop a custom survey. We did a national sample that included 1044 students around the country. These were all high school students, juniors and seniors who indicated that they had intended to enroll in a four year university after graduation.
00:10:48:10 - 00:11:11:17
Jarrett Smith
And we asked them just a broad range of questions. It kind of started with looking at their own political affiliation and sort of level of political activity. But then we asked a whole series of questions around the extent to which either state or campus politics was playing a role in their college choice. We if if it was, we asked them, okay, what are sort of your concerns?
00:11:11:17 - 00:11:43:10
Jarrett Smith
One of the things we want to understand was just like, what are the material concerns, the actual material concerns that students have and what what impact did they think this is potentially going to have on their college experience? We asked about their parents political views and the extent to which they felt that that might influence their choice. And we also asked questions around some interesting issues around free speech on campus and also whether or not they felt that colleges should remain neutral on divisive political issues.
00:11:43:10 - 00:11:49:03
Jarrett Smith
And so we we learned a lot in the report, and it was a really fun and interesting project.
00:11:50:04 - 00:11:56:06
John Azoni
Yeah. So tell me, like, what were some things that surprised you about, you know, the findings here?
00:11:57:13 - 00:12:19:23
Jarrett Smith
Yeah. So, I mean, it is hard to narrow it down. I think it was something that sweeping there's like so many little interesting points of of interest, if you will. But I think if you were to walk away just knowing a few things based off our research, I think it would be first and foremost just that. Yes, politics is a factor for most students most of the time.
00:12:19:23 - 00:12:46:20
Jarrett Smith
I think that's what our research shows. One way that we asked about that was we asked students, we said, hey, if the state's political climate differed significantly from your own views, would that be a factor in your decision? In about 64% of students said, yeah, if the college was located in a state where the political views of that state differed significantly from my own, that would that would definitely be a factor.
00:12:47:09 - 00:13:07:14
Jarrett Smith
And we also asked the same thing for the campus. So if you were considering a campus where the political views of that campus differed significantly from your own, would that be a factor in your decision? In 17, 76% of students said yes, that would be a factor in my decision for about 12% of students on either of those questions.
00:13:07:14 - 00:13:37:16
Jarrett Smith
So differing state politics or different campus politics, about 12% of students said I would not attend that college. So it is sort of a make or break factor for those students. So I think that's sort of the first thing that I would point to. We did actually some interesting work in Grant really worked with this to construct some interesting questions that allowed us to kind of estimate and quantify how much of the college decision does you know, does state and campus politics occupy?
00:13:37:16 - 00:13:57:14
Jarrett Smith
And what we found is that collectively it occupies about 20% of the college decision on average. So that puts it on par with things like financial aid and academic reputation and student life and and that sort of thing. So these more traditional choice factors. So it is it is playing a role.
00:13:58:01 - 00:14:39:06
John Azoni
It's interesting because like when I mean, when I was in college, I remember, you know, George W Bush was was president and I him when I went to art school. So traditionally pretty liberal leaning, you know, So there was a lot of anti-Bush kind of stuff going on. But I don't remember it being as divisive as it is now, like with like specific hot button issues and especially with the like, LGBTQ plus, you know, it wasn't quite it was not nearly the same as it is now as a divisive, you know, political issue.
00:14:40:06 - 00:15:06:09
John Azoni
I don't remember it really being a political issue back then. Mm. But, but yeah, and I just think about it. I mean I've never been like super into politics, but, and so like I guess I'm not the, the, the ideal case study, but I don't, I don't really, I don't remember. I don't remember even thinking about politics, you know, on where I was going to school.
00:15:06:09 - 00:15:21:11
John Azoni
But now seeing, you know, some of these states with very polarizing decisions that they've made or whatever, I can completely see how it's just a whole different world.
00:15:21:11 - 00:15:42:15
Jarrett Smith
Yeah, I mean, I think it really is a testament to how divisive and polarizing politics have worked their way into sort of every aspect of American life. And, you know, I think it also coincides with sort of a dramatic loss in trust of institutions in general. And higher ed used to be one of those things that 20 years ago everybody could kind of agree on.
00:15:42:22 - 00:16:08:10
Jarrett Smith
And now it really has split in large part across political lines and the value of higher ed has become debatable now. And so I think, you know, that that definitely plays into it. And I think, you know, still a lot of high school students are not particularly politically energized, if you will, but you do absolutely have some there are research shows that.
00:16:08:15 - 00:16:35:23
Jarrett Smith
And I think this aligns with what you would get from lots of other studies in this area that young women in general tend to be more politically animated and and and aware than young men as a group. And and I think part of that is that, you know, when we look at the issues that are in front of us today, things like reproductive rights, which is front and center in our political debate, well, that is very salient to young women today and not so much on the radar of young men.
00:16:35:23 - 00:16:39:22
Jarrett Smith
It's not as as personal in that way.
00:16:39:22 - 00:16:50:13
John Azoni
Yeah, that makes sense. So I wanted to back up real quick for people that want to before before I forget to ask you, where can people get this free report out?
00:16:51:03 - 00:17:12:09
Jarrett Smith
Oh, yeah. Thanks for reminding me. That would be nice. Where could I actually read this thing? So if you go to Echo Delta dot Co slash politics, you can download the report for free there, simple registration in them or email it to you and you can can download it. It's about 50 pages long. There is a lot that we dive into there, so that'll be great place to go.
00:17:12:09 - 00:17:14:12
Jarrett Smith
So echo, delta, echo slash politics.
00:17:15:01 - 00:17:29:22
John Azoni
Okay, cool. All right. So now people can follow along if they if they want. What were some some other some other takeaways that, you know, you and I talked about several of them on our on our pre call. But just walk us through some other takeaways from the report.
00:17:30:19 - 00:18:02:10
Jarrett Smith
Yeah. So I mentioned earlier that one of the things we wanted to understand was what are sort of the material concerns that students have. And so we, we asked them and it turns out students have a wide range of concerns. The top three are number one. And again, just to put it in context, this is if you are attending college in a state or on a campus that differs significantly from your own political viewpoint, what are your concerns?
00:18:02:10 - 00:18:32:20
Jarrett Smith
So that's kind of the basic question that we asked. The the top concern was concerns for my own personal safety on campus. Second was a fear of not belonging. And then third was concern around harassment. And there were others, though, and this was interesting. We did definitely see that the likelihood of of having concerns had always really split along lines of political affiliation.
00:18:33:04 - 00:18:58:14
Jarrett Smith
So our left leaning students, which are about 30% of students in our survey, were far more likely to cite a wide range of concerns when compared to moderate or conservative students. That's not to say that our moderate and conservative students didn't cite any concerns, just that our left leaning students were sort of more in tune with a wide range of of concerns.
00:18:58:14 - 00:19:21:15
Jarrett Smith
So again, I think that's helpful If you're an enrollment leader or an emissions professional and you're thinking about, okay, who who are my students? What are their likely political affiliations? And our report really does a lot to kind of illuminate, I think, what some of those specific concerns might be and would certainly be something that an institution could look at and say like, hey, interesting.
00:19:21:15 - 00:19:42:13
Jarrett Smith
Okay, here are some jumping off points that we might explore with our own prospective students and I'd look into further and see if these kind of align with what our students say the other is. Another sort of interesting finding was that we did ask students specifically what states they were the most concerned about, and this was actually where we learned something surprising.
00:19:42:13 - 00:20:06:03
Jarrett Smith
So but first, let me tell you what was not surprising. What was not surprising was that if you break it up by political affiliation, our right leaning students are primarily concerned with California and New York. Those are the states they were most likely to express concerns about. If you broke it up and looked in a segment out are left leaning students.
00:20:06:15 - 00:20:31:17
Jarrett Smith
They pretty much have concerns about any red state, some more than others, though. And this is where it got interesting. So three red states stood out above all the rest, and it was Texas, Florida and Alabama. Now, I think a little bit of that is context dependent because when we ran our survey, Alabama was sort of deep in some very controversial stuff around reproductive rights.
00:20:31:17 - 00:20:51:00
Jarrett Smith
And I think that was top of mind for a lot of students answering our survey. But those three states were far and away the states where students had the most concerns. But here's where it gets interesting. It wasn't just are left leaning students that were concerned about these states. It was also our moderate students and some of our conservative students.
00:20:51:00 - 00:21:14:22
Jarrett Smith
So if you look at Texas in our report, what you'll see is that about 17% of moderate students were concerned about taxes and about 10% of conservatives were concerned about Texas. So that struck yeah, that really kind of struck me. It was not what I was expecting. And so, you know, we were reflecting on this, and I think there's probably two things that are potentially going on there.
00:21:15:09 - 00:21:42:11
Jarrett Smith
The first is that I think as always, when we're looking at research like this, we have to be careful not to assume that these groups are just perfectly homogenous. You know, that all conservative students think alike. It very well could be that, you know, some of our conservative students in the survey actually have what would be considered more, quote, liberal views on things like reproductive rights.
00:21:42:11 - 00:22:07:02
Jarrett Smith
And so maybe they have a concern with going to school in Texas, You know, So I think we have to be careful about making assumptions about sort of the uniformity of beliefs there. The other thing I think is happening, though, is that I think for a lot of students, they just don't want divisive state politics or campus politics to be a major feature in their college experience.
00:22:07:11 - 00:22:17:06
Jarrett Smith
And so regardless of what that state's politics are, I just I just don't want it to really interrupt the larger experience that I'm hoping to have on campus.
00:22:18:07 - 00:22:33:03
John Azoni
Yeah, interesting. Yeah, I think I totally get that. I mean, there's, you know, especially in the in those really more polarized states, I can imagine that's just like really just a huge topic of conversation that some people just wouldn't want to.
00:22:34:01 - 00:22:40:21
Jarrett Smith
Put it, right. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, here in Florida and I don't want to run afoul of our governor because it doesn't work well for folks.
00:22:40:21 - 00:22:41:15
Jarrett Smith
But.
00:22:41:15 - 00:23:02:15
Jarrett Smith
You know, when you think about in the state of Florida with the public school system, the governor has taken a very active role, let's call it, in shaping what those are, the politics of those institutions. And and if you're a prospective student considering Florida public schools or maybe any school in Florida, that that might be if you're fairly politically aware that might be on your radar.
00:23:02:15 - 00:23:19:11
Jarrett Smith
I think that's I would guess that that's probably gotten a little better now that Florida's governor is no longer in the presidential race and things seem to have kind of died down a little bit. I imagine that this recruitment season is less of an issue than maybe the last year when our governor was like in the headlines constantly.
00:23:19:11 - 00:23:25:02
Jarrett Smith
But I think it certainly does give at least some students pause and something to work through.
00:23:25:15 - 00:23:41:01
John Azoni
It's like I heard one of two things about the about your governor, either about his politics or about his shoes. It's like whether he like wearing like platforms or something like that.
00:23:41:22 - 00:24:00:15
Jarrett Smith
I can neither confirm nor deny the platform shoes that our governor may or may not have been wearing. Well, but I think I saw that headline. Yeah, yeah. Again, or maybe you're putting him in a different, different governor. Jon, you're putting me in an uncomfortable position here. Just don't ask questions. You don't want answers.
00:24:01:04 - 00:24:25:20
John Azoni
Yeah, well, that's what I'm going to. You know, investigative journalists. I'm after the truth here, so. Okay, So based on, you know, these findings, you know, we talk about content creation a lot on this podcast. How would you advise schools in their content creation efforts? Like what does all this mean for the market leader that's interpreting this report?
00:24:26:18 - 00:24:52:17
Jarrett Smith
Well, you know, I think that's a really interesting question, John. I think in typical consultant fashion, I'll just say it depends. I think it is very context dependent. So I think the starting place is to look at the prevailing political climate of your state, look at the prevailing political climate of your campus, such as it is, and to consider that the profile of student that you're hoping to recruit and how they how they may feel about those two things.
00:24:52:17 - 00:25:30:23
Jarrett Smith
And really just asking the basic question of like, to what extent are these political climates serving us or not? Is there the possibility that some of our prospective students have some baggage with either our state or our campuses? Politics? And and if you think that baggage exists, our research shows kind of gives you a starting place for what some of those concerns may be and I think would be something that you would want to dig into and kind of validate and explore on your own if you think that, yes, I think there is baggage and we have an idea of what that may be in some of that baggage, then I think it comes down
00:25:30:23 - 00:25:54:10
Jarrett Smith
to looking at your various touchpoints with your prospective students and perhaps other constituents in asking, okay, are there opportunity years to address some of these things more effectively in our various touchpoints? One thing that our research showed was we did ask students, we said, Hey, when you're attempting to gauge the political climate of a campus, where do you look?
00:25:55:05 - 00:26:34:04
Jarrett Smith
And friends and family, we're kind of top of that list, which makes sense intuitively. But a close second was your website. Now that was like super interesting to us because we're like, Well, most schools right now are like active Lee, avoiding trying to come down decisively on any divisive political issue. They are actively working as hard as they can to remain neutral so they don't run afoul of either their student body or, you know, faculty and staff or, you know, if you're a state school, perhaps like, you know, political leaders and other constituents external to the university.
00:26:34:04 - 00:26:57:03
Jarrett Smith
So so what are students actually looking at? Well, as best we can tell, it's like context clues on your website. It's things like, hey, when I pull up your list of programs, do you have a gender studies program? I think for a certain profile of a student, they're going to look at that. And that's just going to be a signal about maybe what the political climate on campus is like.
00:26:57:03 - 00:27:19:18
Jarrett Smith
But they are going to be looking at other context clues like who are the kinds of students that are featured in your, you know, student stories? What who's featured in your photography? What kind of events do you have on campus? What are clubs and orgs look like? And I think they're sort of going through that in informally, to put it in the vernacular of the kids these days.
00:27:19:18 - 00:27:41:23
Jarrett Smith
Like they're getting they're checking out the vibe on campus. Are you are you giving conservative are you giving, you know, sort of lefty blue? And so I think just kind of thoughtfully evaluating it through that lens. And as you look across all of your touchpoints and kind of consider what might this be signaling one way or the other, and is that what we want to signal?
00:27:42:10 - 00:28:13:11
Jarrett Smith
Is that authentic to us? Is that is that aligned with who we're trying to recruit and what we're all about? So I think one common scenario would be just to kind of bring this down to reality a little bit. I think one common scenario might be the purplish campus in a red state. And so this is, I think for those schools, like most schools across the country, they are actively avoiding, you know, coming down decisively on a on a given political issue.
00:28:13:11 - 00:28:29:11
Jarrett Smith
They're trying to remain as neutral as possible. I think that is is prudent and wise. And I got to give it to our college and university presidents. I think for the most part, they're doing a great job on that. And that's a really tricky line to walk. And I think most schools are doing a really good job on that.
00:28:29:11 - 00:28:58:19
Jarrett Smith
So kudos to them. But, you know, I think if you are that purplish campus in a red state, you may consider, hey, you know, when students are coming from out of state, are they bringing with them maybe incorrect assumptions about who is successful on campus or what the typical student looks like on campus? And do we need to do more to reflect who is really successful and accepted and who really belongs on our campus and the type of students we're going after?
00:28:59:02 - 00:29:25:16
Jarrett Smith
So I think if you believe that that's the case, well then that's something you could probably effectively address in your columns flows and your various marketing touch points as it relates to prospective students. I think a completely different scenario, though, would be and this is a much smaller slice of higher education, but it's an interesting one. I think it's the the slice of school that wears its politics on its sleeve and leans into that.
00:29:26:03 - 00:29:50:16
Jarrett Smith
And so there again it comes down to, you know, what are the campus politics as they relate to our prospective students and the kinds of people we're trying to attract here. And then in that case, your your content operation becomes all about doubling down on that and really living out and carrying out that position. Whatever it is that you position you're trying to occupy in that space.
00:29:50:16 - 00:29:55:20
Jarrett Smith
But again, I think that's a much smaller slice of school and there's some interesting things we can can look into on that front.
00:29:56:18 - 00:30:22:12
John Azoni
Yeah, I want to talk about the the the Texas A&M example that you sent me because I just thought that was a fabulous video. Just just in terms of it's just very well done. I like to say specificity is the enemy of boring because like when you when you really because you have schools, like all the schools are going to be like, oh, you know, we believe in diversity, equity and inclusion or something and.
00:30:22:16 - 00:30:40:22
John Azoni
Right. You know, like my my wife is she has her own private practice for therapy, but she's also looking for, you know, salaried work. And so we're in these like job descriptions and they're all all of them have the little statement at the bottom that's like we are equal opportunity employers and we believe in diversity, but like, no one really knows what that means.
00:30:40:22 - 00:31:06:02
John Azoni
But I like this this Texas A&M example that you sent me because it's like little micro stories of students and just their personalities and just the the melting pot of just cool things that people are getting to do from all different walks of life at Texas A&M. We'll link to the video, obviously, but talk about that example and why that why that's a good example for you.
00:31:06:11 - 00:31:34:19
Jarrett Smith
Yeah. Yeah. This was a great piece of creative or actually several pieces that Texas A&M put out. My understanding was launched in 2022, and it was part of an overarching campaign called Where You Belong and just a very amazing set of videos. I think what I love about it is that, you know, like you said, every school is going to or most schools are going to put out statements around diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging.
00:31:34:19 - 00:31:52:21
Jarrett Smith
And I think there's value, obviously, in a formal statement and this is very formal are. But I think what makes that a video from Texas A&M so magical is that it really is like, tell me you believe in diversity without telling me you believe in diversity. Like, show me. And so that's.
00:31:53:00 - 00:32:06:11
John Azoni
A great way of saying that I've never like, put those two together that that like that, like ticktock, you know. Yes. Perfect way to say how I always advise schools. It's like, show me. Don't tell me. It was like, tell me you're this without telling me.
00:32:07:06 - 00:32:24:08
Jarrett Smith
Yes, absolutely. So I think it's really well done. And the more I reflect on that video, I think it is absolutely about the types of students that they're showing, which, you know, on the face of it, on very surface level. Yeah. I mean, do they have sort of a diversity across race that they're showing in the videos? Yeah, absolutely.
00:32:24:08 - 00:32:48:00
Jarrett Smith
But when you watch the videos, it really isn't about that. It's also about the diversity of interests. It's about the diversity of intellectual pursuit that's happening. It's about the diversity of sort of clubs and orgs they have. Part of that campaign included this really adorable set of interviews with the Anime Club and which is not something that I would typically associate with a Texas school.
00:32:48:07 - 00:33:05:01
Jarrett Smith
And in again, that's based on me, right? I mean, Texas A&M is an enormous university. Of course, they're going to attract a wide range of students with a wide range of interest. So intellectually I understand that. But when we're talking about gut level associations of what I think I'm going to find at a Texas school, that is not the first thing that comes to mind.
00:33:06:07 - 00:33:29:23
Jarrett Smith
They also have this just completely adorable video of this woman of color who is a judge, but she is also hilarious and just has this incredible personality that comes forth in the video and you're like, man, you walk away watching those videos going like, wow, there really is a place for me. But they don't. I mean, yes, the campaign is called Where You Belong, but that's about as ham handed as it gets.
00:33:29:23 - 00:33:49:21
Jarrett Smith
And the rest is like just kind of implied, like you will find your people here. And what I also love about it is that the production value and I think you'll appreciate this, John, I really felt like the production values supported that message. It was, yes. Now I'm not a cinematographer, but I really felt like it was kind of done in this playful Wes Anderson esque.
00:33:50:07 - 00:33:50:17
John Azoni
Sort of.
00:33:50:17 - 00:34:11:17
Jarrett Smith
Shot where you got these symmetrical shots and it's it's it's a little sterile in some ways, but very human. And just this thread of humor and and joy that kind of flows throughout the whole thing. And but it's at the same time also kind of poetic and interesting. So I love that. I think it's a very effective piece of communication.
00:34:12:01 - 00:34:16:13
Jarrett Smith
And in something that I think most schools would have been proud to put out.
00:34:17:08 - 00:34:33:21
John Azoni
Yeah, and I and I've been talking a lot lately on other podcasts and on this podcast about short form video and how, you know, just just get out your phone like, you don't have to do this. And like, you know, I have a vested interest in people investing in, you know, cinematic production because that's what we do at Unveiled.
00:34:33:21 - 00:35:02:07
John Azoni
But, but I'll also just been really embracing like this lo fi approach. And I feel like this that's a great example of where a cinematic approach actually will amplify the message. So I think I think, you know, and I was thinking about this yesterday because I'm putting together this report on what's working in higher ed video. And I came across some videos that were like and I Hillsdale College is one that you mentioned.
00:35:02:07 - 00:35:35:09
John Azoni
We might talk about that one where it's already good content paired with a high production value is just a recipe for really good performance. Just it just takes something that's already engaging and makes it more engaging. I don't think what I don't think is helpful is a boring concept or a boring video that's really well-lit, you know? All right, Your camera is like flying around on a gimbal or there's drone shots everywhere.
00:35:35:09 - 00:36:13:15
John Azoni
It's just like it's like lipstick on a pig. But if you have, you know, something that is already a really good story. So the your example, Texas A&M is a great example. And I thought that was a perfect way to show diversity. And for people listening, they can't picture it. It's it's just like these little micro like anecdotes from from different students, you know, students, you know dressed in there's that once in your mentioning dress in cosplay which is like they're dressed as like anime characters in like full costume and then one and then one of them who you don't expect to say she's going to, she's studying law like, you know, you expect her
00:36:13:15 - 00:36:43:18
John Azoni
to say she's studying like art or something like that, but she's like, I'm really interested in law. And so you get these diverse perspectives. But I think the production value also just adds to it. It's it's it just adds this this level of like really like keeps you watching a little longer. And Hillsdale College is one is one of those that that I think leans into their you know their beliefs about the way that the world works.
00:36:43:18 - 00:37:11:00
John Azoni
But separate from that they have these free courses that are just really interesting courses on the Bible and history and things like that. But in paired with they have one that's went really viral. It's got like 20 million views with about like the Genesis story or something like that. And paired with this really high production value, I think it's, I think that like really helps it go viral.
00:37:11:00 - 00:37:20:13
John Azoni
So I think that's just worth noting. When you have something that's when you have a presentation that's already good. Pairing that with a high production value is really helpful.
00:37:21:06 - 00:37:44:08
Jarrett Smith
Yeah, and I think regardless of what anybody you know, if you know Hillsdale College, regardless of what do you think about their politics, there is a lot you can learn from them if in terms of positioning and in terms of like living that out in your content production. I mean, John, what you're saying about their content? Yeah, it's like master class level production values, but it's on topic.
00:37:44:08 - 00:38:11:19
Jarrett Smith
Some of them are. You know, I think all the topics are squarely aimed at like who their identity as an institution and who they want to be and the type of student they want to. And from what I understand, it actually has paid off quite handsomely in terms of their recruitment efforts. They've been filling their classes and becoming increasingly more selective by sort of doubling down on their position as a conservative institution and a sort of a home for conservative thought.
00:38:11:19 - 00:38:31:04
Jarrett Smith
So I think, you know, what I would expect is that when you narrow down like that, like you, you will have that. You will have your audience. Yeah, potentially. I think, you know, but I think most schools are not that and are actually actively trying to do the opposite. But it is an interesting one and one that you can learn a lot from.
00:38:31:14 - 00:39:01:16
Jarrett Smith
And, you know, John, you kind of reminded me, I think part of what Hillsdale is doing is they are leveraging their faculty and bringing faculty forward in sort of reinforcing that. I think another example that is very different, though, is there's a YouTube channel called Social 119 and it a Penn State professor who runs the largest class on race and culture in the United States.
00:39:01:16 - 00:39:33:09
Jarrett Smith
It's a huge, like auditorium class. In four years, he has been publishing every lecture from every semester on YouTube on their channel. And, you know, they dive headlong into the most controversial topics of the day, like if there's a third rail around race and culture, they're going to grab it. And but what I think is so cool about that, and I think it's worth noting, I don't think this is I don't think this is an effort from like big Penn State marketing.
00:39:33:09 - 00:39:56:01
Jarrett Smith
I think this is a professor who wanted to publish his lectures out there. Yeah, but it what is so cool about it is if you sit down, you watch those lectures. He exemplifies this notion of I'm not going to tell you what exactly to think, I'm just going to help you think better, more critically about the world around you and how you're forming the opinions that you are.
00:39:56:11 - 00:40:15:08
Jarrett Smith
And we're going to use these really controversial issues of the day to, go into it. And I think he is, you know, kind of straightforward about politics at times. Like like I'm professor, I'm kind of left leaning, but that's not my point. I'm not trying to get you to buy into any particular dogmatic point of view. I just want you to be really thoughtful and critical about the world around you.
00:40:15:15 - 00:40:34:18
Jarrett Smith
And what is interesting to me about that is how much traction that is picked up from a wider audience out on YouTube. And I think lots of folks from across the political spectrum, you see those videos come to your feed, you know, like, Oh, I got to watch this. And you know, what you get pulled into is this really thoughtful discourse.
00:40:34:18 - 00:40:55:02
Jarrett Smith
And you see young people really struggling to articulate a point of view and and grapple with some really heady stuff. And it's like super interesting. And and I think that's another example. Like, you don't I'm in no way saying you need to follow the Hillsdale model, like occupy a position and get your faculty on to talk about that.
00:40:55:02 - 00:41:15:01
Jarrett Smith
And that's like unique to them and maybe a handful of select schools that are like that. But I think that Social 119 model is like more interesting and yeah, and probably has done, I would guess has done a lot to maybe change some opinions about what some people think is happening in college classrooms right now, particularly around these really divisive issues.
00:41:15:19 - 00:41:38:00
John Azoni
I love that my name, my nine year old daughter is asking really good questions about politics because she's seeing these these commercials on TV. And you know about we see them, you know, you see both sides. You see the anti Kamala commercials that she's letting all these people into the country. And she's a terrible person. And, you know, the other side is Donald Trump's terrible person and blah, blah, blah.
00:41:38:00 - 00:41:59:06
John Azoni
She's like, I don't I don't know. And like, you know, you know, her mom and I are very we're pretty moderate. And so we're not like we're not really pushing one side or the other. But, you know, we had these conversations with her last week because she got into this political discussion with my mother in law, who is very far on one side.
00:41:59:06 - 00:42:01:00
Jarrett Smith
And that's always fun. Yeah.
00:42:01:13 - 00:42:02:21
John Azoni
And so we were kind of like.
00:42:03:08 - 00:42:05:16
Jarrett Smith
Listen, well, it's something to talk about in the car on the way home.
00:42:05:19 - 00:42:34:21
John Azoni
Let's maybe not talk about politics with a nine year old, but but, you know, I told her I'm like, you know, let's over. I was like, who cares what me and mom think? Like Let's let's let's look at the facts that like what each side thinks. And like, you decide. And I think that that's I think that's a really I think we mean we just need more of that, you know, more people just rethinking the narrative around what they're being told from one TV station or another.
00:42:36:10 - 00:43:08:13
Jarrett Smith
But I tell you, you know, one of the big takeaways for me personally coming after authoring this report was just reinforcing the importance and value of what great higher education can do for people. I know that a liberal arts education was absolutely transformative in my life and that I left not only knowing more about it a handful of topics, but a more thoughtful, intellectually aware, critical thinker.
00:43:08:22 - 00:43:36:07
Jarrett Smith
And that was transformative. And so, yeah, I think when you look at some of the what is actually happening in a lot of classrooms across the country, and you think about the the polarization in our country, we desperately need this. Professors who are teaching young people how to to grapple with really difficult ideas and to to engage with people across significant differences and and do that in a way that's productive.
00:43:36:07 - 00:43:55:17
Jarrett Smith
So I you know, my my coauthor on the report, Grant Drew, he and I just recorded a podcast where we we chatted about the results of the report. And, and one thing he said is he's like, you know, I absolutely we want higher ed to be a safe environment for people. But I think that does not mean comfort.
00:43:56:00 - 00:44:21:01
Jarrett Smith
It does not have to mean I am perfectly comfortable at all times. And and we he and I are both kind of aligned on the fact of like if you are sitting in a college classroom and you are 100% comfortable at all times of the content that is being discussed, that school probably isn't doing its job. That's not what you're there to do and showing and really young people to say, Hey, it's okay to grapple with things that are uncomfortable ideas and really dig into those things.
00:44:21:01 - 00:44:38:19
Jarrett Smith
Like that's part of the experience. That's what's going to make you grow. So along those lines, it does take me to another school that I would like to point out. That's the University of Chicago, which I think a lot of folks might be familiar with, sort of their principles for free expression that a lot of other schools have adopted.
00:44:39:06 - 00:45:09:03
Jarrett Smith
And I think this is sort of an interesting take in our political environment. Setting aside the fact of whether, you know, we could say that free expression in and of itself as a political issue, setting that aside, what is interesting about the University of Chicago is they are essentially saying, hey, we're not trying to land hard on any particular issue, but we are in support of free expression and here's what we want that culture of free expression to be like on campus.
00:45:09:03 - 00:45:36:21
Jarrett Smith
And here's why that's significant to our academic environment and to our to our university. So they this is an area where they have come out and sort of explicitly said, this is what we want this war going after. You can look up their principles of free expression. It's it's on their website easy to get to. If you go to their YouTube channel, you will see some videos in their admissions video content that actually does talk about this free expression, which I think is really cool.
00:45:37:01 - 00:45:59:02
Jarrett Smith
And I think maybe, you know, I definitely don't want to armchair quarterback what I think schools should do, but I think there may be an opportunity for more schools to be more forward about the the culture of discourse on campus and what they want that to be like. And so, you know, perhaps there there are opportunities within that.
00:45:59:02 - 00:46:04:01
Jarrett Smith
This comms flow and the marketing touchpoints that prospective students are encountering to talk about that a little bit.
00:46:04:22 - 00:46:18:00
John Azoni
Yeah, yeah, I love that. So tell me what's you know, as we wrap up here, What's what's like the give us like one final thought, Like what's the bottom line. What would you advise our audience with?
00:46:18:00 - 00:46:49:04
Jarrett Smith
Yau-Man Well, you know, kind of circle back to this the big finding politics matters and it matters a lot for a select handful of students. So I think one thing that particularly really good admissions folks are just great about is really understanding the students that they're trying to recruit on a deep level. And so I think this report just gives them one more tool to to understand what may be going on with some of their students and to think think about that in a little more concrete terms and hopefully have a little path forward.
00:46:49:04 - 00:46:56:13
Jarrett Smith
So I would just encourage folks to check it out. And I think it's probably something useful for a lot of folks in it.
00:46:57:09 - 00:47:02:02
John Azoni
Awesome. Love it. Well, this has been fun, man. Where can people connect with yet?
00:47:02:23 - 00:47:29:09
Jarrett Smith
Yeah. So Echo, Delta Echo is sort of the home for our podcast and all our our blog and research stuff. So I would definitely encourage folks to go check out our website, Echo, Delta Echo, and then I'm pretty active on. So. Jarret Smith J.R. Smith I think my actual LinkedIn URL is Smith, Jarrett and people always comment. They're like, Oh, that's like sex in the City.
00:47:29:09 - 00:47:40:09
Jarrett Smith
I don't know. I never watch that. But there maybe there's like, there's like three people listening. They can read like, Hey, yeah, sure.
00:47:41:13 - 00:47:57:21
John Azoni
Yeah. Awesome. Yeah, definitely check out Echo Delta, check out the hired marketing Lab, This great, great episode that you have with Grant on there about this. You know, more more of this unpacking of this report. So definitely people go check that out and Yemen Jared thanks for being here. I appreciate it.
00:47:58:14 - 00:48:00:10
Jarrett Smith
John thank you so much. Man, it was a lot of fun.
